Immediate Return From Death Chance Max?

Can someone remind me...

Does a Sworn Sword's chance to immediately return from death effectively max out at 70% like speed does, or can it go higher than 70%?

I presume it has a cap since I've never encountered invincible SS in camps, but I'd like to know what the cap is exactly.

Comments

  • NNNN ✭✭✭
    @Shan it would really be nice if we had adb provided list of caps, is that something the team can make happen or not??

    we have wound reductions, we have chance to cause extra wounds, chance to ignore wound, chance to be removed from garrison when receiving a wound

    craft timer reduction, chance of superior result, chance for extra luck on failure

    increased ptp/adventure/quest silver gain by x, x chance to increas
    ptp/adventure/quest silver gain by 100%

    etc..............................

    ehh i was going to list all that I couldnt think of whether I knew the cap or not, but I've gotten lazy.

    P.S @Guderian I just realized that the most likely reason one might believe instant revival is capped at/can go up to 100% is because its chance based, and since chance based seals (atleast the stat/silver based ones) go up to 100% chance to cause x / or increase blank by x%, they see x% chance for an ss to be instantly revived without penalty, and figure like other chance based seals it goes up to 100% chance as well.
    Needless to say if someone proves to me a player can have a 100% chance for instant revival I'm going to have to go slap some sense into some people.
  • GuderianGuderian ✭✭
    Right, the numbers displayed are sometimes rather meaningless, and it would be great if there were a nice chart that listed all the maximums as you suggest. I forgot how many there really are until you started listing them out!
    I've encountered SS in camps that revive over and over again, but eventually they all die. So either 100% is not the max or coincidentally no one maxes it out. I just want to know if it's capped at 70% or somewhere a bit higher than that.
  • NNNN ✭✭✭
    I know what you mean, I've had ss shown in my log as being killed and revived 3 4 or so times before they stopped showing up as defenders.
    cant say that i know what the max is (i just assume 70% since thats what it is for most of the capped things....as chance things that go to 100 isn't so much so capped as it is that its pointless to go beyond 100% chance of something happening since it makes no difference). I cant even truely say it is capped, I just don't see how it logically wouldn't be (db can't possible be that foolish).

    @Auralys is very knowledgeable about the game, and she's said its capped at 100% but despite her knowlegde I find that hard to swallow....maybe im just being stubborn, so I need some proof or for atleast someone else to show up and say "hey it does actually cap at 100%" (it would be even better if db would be the one weighing in, but i'll take anyone whose an actual player and not just a troll)

    @Dutcher you know I count on you to answer those hard questions I don't know, so whats up man???? you know this one?
  • DutcherDutcher ✭✭✭
    edited July 26
    :D Always trust @Auralys, it is known. I think she's right on this one. There is no cap on instant revival % but effectively 100% would be the max of course. Realistically, 6 slots on mc + 18 slots on MC gear + 6 slots on the defending ss gives you 30 seal slots total + whatever % the actual mc and ss gear would give you. I guess a player could theoretically get to 100% if they tried hard enough but they would be giving up a lot of battle/trade % bonus at the same time. Doesn't make sense to ensure revival if you still lose every incoming battle. In the end, the goal of defense is to win against incoming and block that wave's VP gain. Better to get as strong as possible def in there and replenish / revive your dead. I wouldn't even want someone to insert weak asz defense as described above into my camps, but that's just me. Hope that helps o:)
    Arya Serious? If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much!
  • NNNN ✭✭✭
    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ........ummmmmm can't decide if I should go rage at db yet.
    stat wise im not sure just how much win % chance a person would lose by using a instant revival set up verus a regular setup for increased stats and % boost, but consider how win percent is calculated they likely wouldnt lose more than a 5 to maybe 20% off their chance of success, just how much of a difference that makes in the long run versus always having a camp that always has a defender. In truth thinking about it only one ava participant in the alliance needs to go for a few instant reviving ss, the others can have their ss geared normally.

    plus wound timer reduction, ignoring wound, and chance to cause an attacker a second wound on successful defense also requires dropping stat increasing seals (but plenty of top players have no issues using or recommending those as good defense builds) but between any of those and instant revival I'd take 100% chance of instant revival (unless ignoring wounds also goes to 100%, I definetly no doubt about it know wound timer reduction doesnt go to 100%).





    well dutcher once again you prove to know more than I do an come in helping me figure out whats what, but yep seems i'm just too stubborn/find this one too hard to believe....going to have to see this one play out with my own eyes (If/when I can manage to get enough seals).

    edit: dont feel like trying to reword my post especially since it proves nothing.
    but upon figuring out what seals etc I would need to make my immortal build I came across this: http://gotascent.wikia.com/wiki/Thoros_of_Myr's_Insignia?comments_page=1

    and then this https://forums.disruptorbeam.com/gota/viewthread/45720 idk what the cap was before (since nod mentions lowering it to 70%) and just like the one player that asked in the thread idk if the cap is or isn't still 70%.
  • GuderianGuderian ✭✭
    edited July 26
    Dutcher, technically you have 48 seal slots + inherent gear % + building upgrade + a tactic. I don't think it'd be that difficult to get to 100%, especially if you just wanted one immortal SS and wanted to keep your MC gear as whatever you usually use. And in that case, even if that lone SS is guarding a 0-silver camp, you might still be able to reduce your average enemy's win rate from 99% to around 75%, give or take. Maybe it'd be best to use all the other defending SS as your main defense force so you have the power stats, but then have that lone immortal one just to ensure that even if your whole camp gets wiped out, you still cost your enemy a fifth or more of their VP while they're trying to take down your camp's health. Sounds like a reasonable defense strategy to me.
    NN wrote: »
    and then this https://forums.disruptorbeam.com/gota/viewthread/45720 idk what the cap was before (since nod mentions lowering it to 70%) and just like the one player that asked in the thread idk if the cap is or isn't still 70%.
    Good find on that thread. I was almost ready to take Dutcher's word for it and now I have my doubts again and feel like we really need DB to weigh in for a definitive answer.
    We need to know:
    -Did Nod ever really lower it to 70%?
    -Was it subsequently raised back to 100% immediately afterward or at any point over the next 3 years up to today?
    -Where does it stand now?

    If it is really 100%, I do still find it surprising I never encountered any immortal SS after all this time (discounting the bug described in that old thread). I would think somewhere out there someone I attacked at some point would be using that strategy, regardless of where it may rank in terms of efficacy or preference. I would test it out myself, except now that the seal peel sale is over, that would just be a waste of gold for an experiment that might not even work.
  • DutcherDutcher ✭✭✭
    @Guderian yep correct, it's 48 including the defending ss gear slots. And the tactic and building = what 40%? So you would only need to stick a max of 30 Thoros seals somewhere, or just add dragons and other instant revival gear. Shouldn't be too hard to achieve indeed. I'm sure someone has tried, will wait for them to respond.
    I did check all the old build notes from the time of Nod's post (October 8th 2015) until the new year January 2016, as he mentioned it would be capped at 70% the following Monday.

    9lkhq53dppdn.png

    Lot's of AvA changes mentioned in the following build notes but nothing about capping the instant revival chance without penalty at 70%. Additionally I always thought those caps always related to timers, including wound repair and dead ss revival times but not % bonuses or % chance of x happening.

    5erpbxlxeeq6.png

    uhhdxoorzc9b.png

    Etc etc until Jan 4th 2016, nothing

    In other words, DB strikes again, I'm back to being clueless :)
    Arya Serious? If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much!
  • DutcherDutcher ✭✭✭
    Regarding the blocking of incoming waves, 25% win rate even with 0 silver: No way. 25% VP blocking is a pretty good block even with full silver and full strength defense. If you tried defending with 0 silver and an ss and mc full of Thoros seals and revival gear, yeah your ss would stay alive but you would probably only be winning less than 10% of your battles, if that. And getting 0 VP yourself. That's why I wouldn't recommend it as a good strategy if you're fighting for a region win.
    Of course, there might be other circumstances where it makes it a lot easier for the player, to just dump some defense in overnight and go sleep without worrying about ss death. I would still prefer a strong, active defender however, who has plenty of spare ss to replenish their dead. Their blocking will be much much better and they wouldn't be taking up valuable GP / active VP spots all day and night.
    Arya Serious? If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much!
  • NNNN ✭✭✭
    I do think db naturally thought to cap the timer reductions but likely overlooked capping some stuff, I believe the first chance based seals focuses on increase % towards actions (att/def/harass/etc.), and in the begining some things were theoritically capped because db had yet to introduce ways to increase the % chance, then they likely introduced new gears and seals forgetting that they didn't put a cap in place.
    The history of the game has certainly shown though that most cap come into place after the fact, because db seeminly lacks forsight.
    also thinking about it didn't the red priest tactic originally offer a 70% chance of instant revival? I forget when tactics were added but if the cap was 70% chance I kinda doubt they would make the tactic for the exact cap, especially since the r'hllor temple has the premium altar upgrade for 25% chance (though its db afterall).

    all that said the best options for maxing out/testing the max of the instant revival chance is; maxed out altar upgrade (25%), the use of the red priest tactic (15%), colossal dargon (21%, unless tan 22%), thoros of myre insignia (2%).....so 2 regular colossal + the altar upgrade + the tactic is 42+25+15=82, so with 9 thoros insignias on the ss and on the ss non dragon gear thats 100% without really losing out on any % boost that would really make a difference or screw up the dragon build (especially since only one should really be needed, though with system lag etc. the ss might end up not defending a few).

    P.S I didn't include the likes of melisandre's torch or stannis fiery emblem since their overall stats isn't that great. They might be worth it though depending on what the person intends to do with the free seal slots and if one doesn't already have the 9 thoros seals and open seal slots to put them in getting the torch and emblem is cheaper. 5% chance each for 10% total, so only 4 thoros insignias would be needed and they could be put into the 4 open slots between the torch and emblem.
  • GuderianGuderian ✭✭
    Dutcher wrote: »
    Regarding the blocking of incoming waves, 25% win rate even with 0 silver: No way. 25% VP blocking is a pretty good block even with full silver and full strength defense. If you tried defending with 0 silver and an ss and mc full of Thoros seals and revival gear, yeah your ss would stay alive but you would probably only be winning less than 10% of your battles, if that. And getting 0 VP yourself. That's why I wouldn't recommend it as a good strategy if you're fighting for a region win.
    Of course, there might be other circumstances where it makes it a lot easier for the player, to just dump some defense in overnight and go sleep without worrying about ss death. I would still prefer a strong, active defender however, who has plenty of spare ss to replenish their dead. Their blocking will be much much better and they wouldn't be taking up valuable GP / active VP spots all day and night.

    Two possible setups (out of many) for getting 100% revival chance, if it exists, are:
    1 colossal dragon on MC + 3 pieces of the right gear for your SS totaling 18% + 18 Thoros seals + R'hllor Temple upgrade = 100%;
    2 colossal dragons + 2 pieces of right gear for SS totaling 13% + 10 Thoros seals + R'hllor Temple upgrade = 100%
    In either of these cases, you still have two gear slots on your MC, all their seal slots, your MC seal slots, all dragon seal slots, and all tactics free for whatever you choose.

    Using the second setup above, one could use the following:
    All %'s listed are defense %'s.
    Calculations assume an incoming trade action and no wounds on the SS.
    Due to equipment used, intrigue and battle defenses would be higher and offensive camp bonus would be lower. Therefore, this calculation disfavors the defender more than most other scenarios.


    MC:
    -MC itself: Maxed building upgrades (minus the newest premium 3-pt upgrades) + 48% from talents + 6 unspecified seals (pick any)
    -Weapon: AVSGS @ 7% + 6 Mormont seals @ 3% ea.
    -Armor: LC Jon Snow @ 10% + 6 Mormont seals @ 3% ea.
    -Companion: Colossal Dragon @ 17% + 6 Mormont seals @ 3% ea.
    SS:
    -SS itself: 30 base + 126% in specific action (bribe or swindle in this example) + 6 unspecified seals (pick any)
    -Weapon: Revive-focused, no def bonus from item or seals.
    -Armor: Revive-focused, no def bonus from item or seals, except for: 25 base stat + 2 seals which can be any.
    -Companion: Colossal Dragon @ 17% + 6 Mormont seals @ 3% ea.

    According to my calculations, this ends up with the defender having about 975 base stat (varies slightly based on character path chosen upon reincarnation) + 297% def = ~3871 damage defense stat.
    For the offensive player, I'm assigning a 12,000 damage offense stat because I think that's fair. I could calculate the highest offense possible, but since most attacking players would be utilizing speed gear rather than power gear, I think 12,000 is generous enough.
    12,000 / (12,000 + 3871) = ~75.6% win rate
    Ergo, about a 24.4% defensive win rate for trade actions. Higher for battle or intrigue.

    This is of course just one example, but I think it shows you can have a 100% revival chance (if possible) on an SS without completely resigning yourself to a single-digit defensive win rate from that SS. Since this requires your MC to use def gear rather than speed gear or attack gear, I'm really intending this as an off-hours strategy or an "overnight crew" situation rather than an active hours strategy.
  • GuderianGuderian ✭✭
    NN wrote: »
    also thinking about it didn't the red priest tactic originally offer a 70% chance of instant revival? I forget when tactics were added but if the cap was 70% chance I kinda doubt they would make the tactic for the exact cap, especially since the r'hllor temple has the premium altar upgrade for 25% chance (though its db afterall).

    I don't really remember the red priest tactic being something different than 15%, but it may have been. But if memory serves, the R'hllor Temple upgrade used to be 5% and then they increased it to 25%.

  • DutcherDutcher ✭✭✭
    edited July 27
    Originally there was no cap. That comment from Nod saying that he was going to add it, came from the thread about all the bugs / issues with ss getting stuck & lost in keep and in garrison at the same time. And the old issue of zombie defenders (showing 5 wounds/dead but still defending). Not that the cap would have solved any of those problems but that's when it was first mentioned. I never heard of or seen it actually being implemented though. That's the current issue. If there is a cap on it, why 70%? Just because the speed ups are capped at 70%? Makes no sense to me, they are completely unrelated game mechanics anyway. I'm still betting on no cap until proven otherwise ;)
    Arya Serious? If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much!
  • NNNN ✭✭✭
    @Guderian nice calculations............for the r'hllor temple upgrade I actually don't ever recall it being different only it being 5% per upgrade (it maxes at 5 upgrades), lol its funny you think one I think was always the same was changed while I think one you think was always the same was changed.

    @Dutcher I can't tell you why he choose 70%, nor if that was ever really the 1st time it was ever mentioned (db appearently has issue with how they decide which info they essentially need to inform us all about and which ones they can leave in an little dark corner of the forum or wherever). I can't even really decide at the moment if 70 is too high, just right, or too low....but I can say I think there shouldn't be any 100% guaranteed way of having an immortal/un-killable ss, and if there is going to be a way it shouldn't be so simple.

    p.s it does indeed more likely than not seem the cap was originally 100% either hard capped or there wasn't really one but it was effectively capped at 100% (since there's no benefit beyond that) at the least it was higher than 70 for sure. Since by the time of the thread nod posted in thoros of myr seals were already out (though i'm not sure how widely available they were, as they might have only been in one time offers) I can only assume a lack of oversight/planning and organization is why it would take them looking into reports of zombie ss to feel immortal ss shouldn't be a thing (if only briefly, since maybe it wasn't actually changed....in which case they should be slapped imo.******and no I'm not encouraging violence against the db staff, please do not actually slap the db staff).


    p.p.s I also can't say why db appearently shy away from answering such simple questions........please don't tell me they don't even know this much about their own game.

  • GuderianGuderian ✭✭
    NN wrote: »
    @Guderian nice calculations............for the r'hllor temple upgrade I actually don't ever recall it being different only it being 5% per upgrade (it maxes at 5 upgrades), lol its funny you think one I think was always the same was changed while I think one you think was always the same was changed.

    Perhaps I'm wrong and not remembering it correctly, but for some reason I have that memory in my head. We've all been playing this game for so many years; all the changes start to meld into one big blur.
  • Dutcher wrote: »
    Originally there was no cap. That comment from Nod saying that he was going to add it, came from the thread about all the bugs / issues with ss getting stuck & lost in keep and in garrison at the same time. And the old issue of zombie defenders (showing 5 wounds/dead but still defending). Not that the cap would have solved any of those problems but that's when it was first mentioned. I never heard of or seen it actually being implemented though. That's the current issue. If there is a cap on it, why 70%? Just because the speed ups are capped at 70%? Makes no sense to me, they are completely unrelated game mechanics anyway. I'm still betting on no cap until proven otherwise ;)

    Maybe send a ticket to support and ask if there is a cap or not?
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  • DutcherDutcher ✭✭✭
    Ha, no thanks. They are pretty tired of me already. And I tend to trust the knowledge of the other players a bit more ;)
    Arya Serious? If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much!
  • ShanShan admin
    Guderian wrote: »
    Can someone remind me...

    Does a Sworn Sword's chance to immediately return from death effectively max out at 70% like speed does, or can it go higher than 70%?

    I presume it has a cap since I've never encountered invincible SS in camps, but I'd like to know what the cap is exactly.

    The cap is indeed 70%.
  • GuderianGuderian ✭✭
    Thanks, Shan! Now we have a definitive answer. :)
  • AuralysAuralys ✭✭✭
    oof, I was super wrong. Really sorry about that! I honestly never knew that cap existed. I did ask a similar question awhile ago (old forums) and Tofu told me there were no caps other than speed. So I just took that as is. So I apologize for giving out incorrect information, I am very embarrassed.

    Thank you @Shan for clearing that up.

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  • NNNN ✭✭✭
    not your fault or tofu's....seems there likely wasn't a cap, then there was, and db didn't think to info us as @dutcher appearently checked and found no mention of the change in any of the closely followed build notes.
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