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Discovery season 2......guessing future plot welcome. WARNING! MAYBE SPOILERS HERE!!!!!!!!

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Comments

  • New to the forum. So be kind. My comment/speculation is Burnham's End Game. It is a given there's no mention of her in cannon -- nor is there is any mention or reference of anyone who could be her. We all know the current mission is to take the DISCO far into the future where it will become what is reflected in Calypso. But what of Burnham? How will she fit? How will her mother fit? The answer, in my opinion, is that Michael was never meant to exist at all ... at least not past her youth. Bear with me.

    Does it strike anyone else as odd that Michael's "trek" into the wilderness at a young age is very similar to Spock's, as reflected in the STTAS episode "Yesteryear?" In that episode of course, adult Spock uses the Guardian to go back and "save himself" from being killed. It's a classic take on the Grandfather Paradox with the added twist of saving oneself from death. And that in turn sets in motion the inevitable, "Well how could adult Spock exist if he died when he was a child, etc." There's no answer.

    Now back to Michael, and one can [kind of] ask the same thing when Michael's mother saves her as a youth on Vulcan. Shouldn't Michael have died? Her mother says at one point, "I've watched you die a thousand times." Isn't the "proper" time line one in which Michael Burnham died as a youth? If so, there's your answer as to why neither she nor her existence is mentioned in canon. Oh and btw -- if there's no adult Michael, might the Klingon war have been averted? And if there's no Klingon war, there's no Voq-turned-Ash. Also if there's no Klingon war, maybe there's no development of the AI that will become Control because Section 31 will only be a fragment of what it is now.

    And so maybe [again be kind], the current end game will involve Michael, in the future as the REAL Red Angel, who will travel to Vulcan and PREVENT her mother from saving the younger Michael, thus re-setting the time line. You'd get a tearful reunion between mother and daughter watching from a distance as the younger Michael is killed or mortally wounded [and maybe you'd get another similar plot point to TAS/Yesteryear where Spock tends to his wounded pet, except this time it is a mother tending to her wounded daughter]. And then a slow dissolution/disintegration of the Red Angel as she vanishes from existence.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this Thursday the last episode of the season?
  • [7TW] UnkieB[7TW] UnkieB ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Is this Thursday the last episode of the season?

    Yes
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Is this Thursday the last episode of the season?

    Yes

    Going to war again. Lots of battles going on before the calm of TOS and Kirk

  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, one hundred years after "Enterprise", Vulcans still seem to be holding out on Starfleet. Contrived emotional cliche Mom & Pop scene only happened because that little Vulcan ship got to the warzone hours ahead of the Enterprise.......
    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • KaiteeKaitee ✭✭✭✭✭
    I didn't mind the scene on its own merits - Sonequa Martin-Green was a bit of a shock during season one, after so many somewhat stoic performances in Trek over the years (and I don't mean just the Vulcans), but I'm really loving her raw emotion now - but yeah, I did wonder about that. "You did more for me than I can ever express, and I love you both. BTW could you drop by Starfleet HQ on your way home and ask them to send over the entire Constitution class fleet loaded for bear, thanks in advance."
  • edited April 18
    New to the forum. So be kind. My comment/speculation is Burnham's End Game. It is a given there's no mention of her in cannon -- nor is there is any mention or reference of anyone who could be her. We all know the current mission is to take the DISCO far into the future where it will become what is reflected in Calypso. But what of Burnham? How will she fit? How will her mother fit? The answer, in my opinion, is that Michael was never meant to exist at all ... at least not past her youth. Bear with me.

    Does it strike anyone else as odd that Michael's "trek" into the wilderness at a young age is very similar to Spock's, as reflected in the STTAS episode "Yesteryear?" In that episode of course, adult Spock uses the Guardian to go back and "save himself" from being killed. It's a classic take on the Grandfather Paradox with the added twist of saving oneself from death. And that in turn sets in motion the inevitable, "Well how could adult Spock exist if he died when he was a child, etc." There's no answer.

    Now back to Michael, and one can [kind of] ask the same thing when Michael's mother saves her as a youth on Vulcan. Shouldn't Michael have died? Her mother says at one point, "I've watched you die a thousand times." Isn't the "proper" time line one in which Michael Burnham died as a youth? If so, there's your answer as to why neither she nor her existence is mentioned in canon. Oh and btw -- if there's no adult Michael, might the Klingon war have been averted? And if there's no Klingon war, there's no Voq-turned-Ash. Also if there's no Klingon war, maybe there's no development of the AI that will become Control because Section 31 will only be a fragment of what it is now.

    And so maybe [again be kind], the current end game will involve Michael, in the future as the REAL Red Angel, who will travel to Vulcan and PREVENT her mother from saving the younger Michael, thus re-setting the time line. You'd get a tearful reunion between mother and daughter watching from a distance as the younger Michael is killed or mortally wounded [and maybe you'd get another similar plot point to TAS/Yesteryear where Spock tends to his wounded pet, except this time it is a mother tending to her wounded daughter]. And then a slow dissolution/disintegration of the Red Angel as she vanishes from existence.

    The absence of any reference of her in canon does not preclude her existence. Spock never mentioned her onscreen in TOS or the movies because there was simply no need to. It didn't advance those stories in any way. I have worked with some of my co-worker's for fifteen years and some of them don't know I have two brothers, it's just never come up.

    Or perhaps it did but it wasn't broadcast on the television because it was when we were having a boring day.

    Welcome to the forum btw! 😊
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 19
    New to the forum. So be kind. My comment/speculation is Burnham's End Game. It is a given there's no mention of her in cannon -- nor is there is any mention or reference of anyone who could be her. We all know the current mission is to take the DISCO far into the future where it will become what is reflected in Calypso. But what of Burnham? How will she fit? How will her mother fit? The answer, in my opinion, is that Michael was never meant to exist at all ... at least not past her youth. Bear with me.

    Does it strike anyone else as odd that Michael's "trek" into the wilderness at a young age is very similar to Spock's, as reflected in the STTAS episode "Yesteryear?" In that episode of course, adult Spock uses the Guardian to go back and "save himself" from being killed. It's a classic take on the Grandfather Paradox with the added twist of saving oneself from death. And that in turn sets in motion the inevitable, "Well how could adult Spock exist if he died when he was a child, etc." There's no answer.

    Now back to Michael, and one can [kind of] ask the same thing when Michael's mother saves her as a youth on Vulcan. Shouldn't Michael have died? Her mother says at one point, "I've watched you die a thousand times." Isn't the "proper" time line one in which Michael Burnham died as a youth? If so, there's your answer as to why neither she nor her existence is mentioned in canon. Oh and btw -- if there's no adult Michael, might the Klingon war have been averted? And if there's no Klingon war, there's no Voq-turned-Ash. Also if there's no Klingon war, maybe there's no development of the AI that will become Control because Section 31 will only be a fragment of what it is now.

    And so maybe [again be kind], the current end game will involve Michael, in the future as the REAL Red Angel, who will travel to Vulcan and PREVENT her mother from saving the younger Michael, thus re-setting the time line. You'd get a tearful reunion between mother and daughter watching from a distance as the younger Michael is killed or mortally wounded [and maybe you'd get another similar plot point to TAS/Yesteryear where Spock tends to his wounded pet, except this time it is a mother tending to her wounded daughter]. And then a slow dissolution/disintegration of the Red Angel as she vanishes from existence.

    They explain why the family never mentions her again in the episode.

    Scott's first reactions:

    "Count again." And I was like "Holy Snarkies!!!"
    Lippy and Nhan made a cool team.
    The space Battle might be the best space battle I have ever seen on TV. OR IN A MOVIE!!!!!
    The Battle in the corridor wfith the wonkied up gravity was neat.
    Is Paul okay?!?!? I'm half-way "Hugh came back!" and half-way "Is Paul dying, and hallucinating Hugh is there?" (Note that weird look on Pollard's face that one time she looked at Paul.)
    I was like "Lippy's gonna shove him in the Spore Chamber!"
    I knew Kat was gonna close that hatch. I expected her to do it as soon as Number One left.
    Spock said "I love you". I'm still misting up a little.
    Number One's name is Number One!!!
    I keep wondering if we would have recognized the Debriefer, since they used careful camera angles to hide his face.
    Where was my post-credit scene with a Terran shuttle appearing somewhere, cut into interior, and Prime Lorca tells Mirror Burnham "Welcome to my universe."?!?!?
    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • Commander SinclairCommander Sinclair ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great ending, and yes, edge of your seat super-drama right until the end!

    Still loving that Enterprise! Wish our version in the game was a little closer to it.

    Section 31 CAPTAIN Tyler. I actually did not see that coming. I figured he would just stay with the Klingons after that and sulk about Burnham.

    Now begs the Question... "Where does Discovery go from here?" From the Shorts Treks, it becomes a self aware autonomous A.I. just like Control, but nicer. Now the crew has only a couple hundred years to teach the computer to "be good" before they all disappear? Hmmm...

    Lot's of great stuff, now to digest the info, and prepare to binge watch the whole season all over again.
    "When the Future becomes the past, the present will become unlocked."
  • KaiteeKaitee ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's a weird thing to focus on but I loved the reuse of the Motion Picture effect for going into the wormhole.

    Bit curious about the Klingons, tbh - they seem to have gone back to calling L'Rell 'Chancellor' instead of Mother, and nobody on their bridge seemed curious about why Ash's head was still attached. I guess it's been a while since Klingons and humans were mingling, she could've told them humans can grow their heads back, everybody knows that. Did anyone else get the impression from their dialogue that there was supposed to be a single D7 ship? I was waiting for this one ship to show up and wade into the battle like the wrath of god, but then I thought I saw a bunch of them. I've got a sneaking feeling maybe somebody in effects and somebody in script weren't quite on the same page there.

    RSVP Admiral Bob, went out like a boss. I thought she was going to pull the handle before Pike got there too. (Who designs these manual release things to only ever be accessible from the doom side of the door?)
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kaitee wrote: »
    It's a weird thing to focus on but I loved the reuse of the Motion Picture effect for going into the wormhole.

    Bit curious about the Klingons, tbh - they seem to have gone back to calling L'Rell 'Chancellor' instead of Mother, and nobody on their bridge seemed curious about why Ash's head was still attached. I guess it's been a while since Klingons and humans were mingling, she could've told them humans can grow their heads back, everybody knows that. Did anyone else get the impression from their dialogue that there was supposed to be a single D7 ship? I was waiting for this one ship to show up and wade into the battle like the wrath of god, but then I thought I saw a bunch of them. I've got a sneaking feeling maybe somebody in effects and somebody in script weren't quite on the same page there.

    RSVP Admiral Bob, went out like a boss. I thought she was going to pull the handle before Pike got there too. (Who designs these manual release things to only ever be accessible from the doom side of the door?)

    I fangirled when they wormholed!!!!!

    Yeah, L'Oreal clearly said "the D-7". I was expecting just one, as well. I thought is was kind of strange that when Kat closed the emergency bulkhead, it had a window in it. Then, after the big bada boom, an all-metal door finally dropped. One of those famous "IRTS" Star Trek moments, I guess......


    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • KaiteeKaitee ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought is was kind of strange that when Kat closed the emergency bulkhead, it had a window in it. Then, after the big bada boom, an all-metal door finally dropped. One of those famous "IRTS" Star Trek moments, I guess......

    I haven't watched it again yet to check, but wasn't it a turbolift that accessed that area? So the door with the window (transparent aluminum presumably - pity they didn't make the ceiling of that corridor Stamets was in out of it) was the blast door, and the solid doors were just the regular turbolift doors. I guess it'd actually be useful, if you could do it strongly enough, to have viewports in blast doors, so you can see how bad the other side is wrecked without having to physically open it up. Like the big engineering garage door in TNG, except the place invariably got filled up with smoke so you couldn't see anything anyway. You get that in submarines come to think of it, or at least in movie submarines, there's always a little porthole in the heavy sealable doors so you can see the dude's face on the other side while he's tragically drowning.

    Looking back, all my theories were basically wrong, but that's okay, it's the journey that matters or something.
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seriously, Paul is okay, right?
    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • R.I.P. Katrina Cornwell
    Disruptor Beam Do Better!
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    R.I.P. Katrina Cornwell

    She went out like a boss. And died saving her kids.
    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20
    I would have been fine if this were the series finale, and now we start a new series called Star Trek: Pike. I'm just tired of Burnham having to take the time to feel all her emotions and talk about them before doing what must be done. It's so sanctimonious.

    {But she's self-actualizing!} Give me a break.

    This is Starfleet. Sit down with Counselor Troi and work out your feelings AFTER you defeat the Borg, escape Gul Madred's interrogation chamber, or live Kamin's entire life in the blink of an eye. The galaxy doesn't have time for you to sort out your emotions first.
    Fleet: Starship Trista
    Captain Level: 85
    VIP Level: 12
    Unique Crew Immortalized: 428
    Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat
  • KaiteeKaitee ✭✭✭✭✭
    Y'know I just realised something. Admiral Bob's pre-asplode pose reminded me of how everyone on the bridge did Parade Rest to show respect for Pike on his way out the door, and he returned it - which makes sense, Starfleet is only Mildly Military so obviously they don't throw salutes, but in the context they're using it that basically means Parade Rest is their way of saluting. So Seven was being super respectful that entire time.
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kaitee wrote: »
    Y'know I just realised something. Admiral Bob's pre-asplode pose reminded me of how everyone on the bridge did Parade Rest to show respect for Pike on his way out the door, and he returned it - which makes sense, Starfleet is only Mildly Military so obviously they don't throw salutes, but in the context they're using it that basically means Parade Rest is their way of saluting. So Seven was being super respectful that entire time.

    Epiphany! I never thought of that. Good catch.
    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree that Burnham needs to stop crying and getting all in her feelings and just get the job done. I was also wondering why the hell Cornwell had to actually be in the room while it exploded. That made no sense
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    I agree that Burnham needs to stop crying and getting all in her feelings and just get the job done. I was also wondering why the hell Cornwell had to actually be in the room while it exploded. That made no sense

    The atch could only be closed from inside. The control was in the room. The exterior control panel was destroyed.
    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    I agree that Burnham needs to stop crying and getting all in her feelings and just get the job done. I was also wondering why the hell Cornwell had to actually be in the room while it exploded. That made no sense

    The atch could only be closed from inside. The control was in the room. The exterior control panel was destroyed.

    Ah. I must have missed that part. I watch them on Friday morning in the basement while playing with the kid and the dog. Lots of distraction.
  • Banjo1012 wrote: »
    I agree that Burnham needs to stop crying and getting all in her feelings and just get the job done. I was also wondering why the hell Cornwell had to actually be in the room while it exploded. That made no sense

    The atch could only be closed from inside. The control was in the room. The exterior control panel was destroyed.

    It's a pity nobody had invented intra-ship transport yet. Presumably that will work fine event when the shields are up?!
  • KaiteeKaitee ✭✭✭✭✭
    There was an episode of TOS where they did an intra-ship transport and it was a super risky move - I mean they did it on Enterprise once and it worked and the TOS one ('Day of the Dove') didn't kill anyone either, but it doesn't sound like it's considered safe like it is in TNG.

    Watched the finale again, keeping a particular eye out in the Culber scenes, and I'm pretty sure he's there for real. Being Doyle I just really don't think they'd fake out the audience like that, after all the backlash against fridging Hugh and then going to all the trouble to bring him back - nobody in their right mind would want to kick off season three with "Psych! Hugh's not on the ship after all, and hey we killed off our other gay guy as well! Merry Mardi Gras!" And being Watson, his back was to camera but I'm pretty sure I saw Hugh in the general mess in sickbay treating other patients before he came over to Paul - and Pollard did tell someone to take care of Paul, and nobody else did. Plus Hugh was waving medical glow sticks around and had blood on his uniform, it felt like if it was a hallucination it was trying really hard to be a completely convincing one. I did spot Pollard look their way before the end, but I feel like that can just be chalked up to her knowing their history - everything they've been through as a couple, and now Hugh's hovering over Paul's bed all loving, I can see that catching her attention as significant.

    This viewing the pauses for Burnham to express herself did kind of become more noticeable, yeah - I've still come around to her on that count after being a bit weirded out in season one, but they could've structured things better. I headcanoned in that everyone on Discovery is used to her by now, so all the battle plans had a bunch of "Michael has an emotion, estimate 45-90 seconds" blocks sketched in at key points so everyone could stay coordinated.

    Forgot to mention it before, but I loved L'Rell cracking up laughing in the middle of the battle. It's been tough to see her feelings during her arc what with the thick makeup, but it was really fun to see that Kor/Martok 'Space Viking and loving it' side to her.
  • Kaitee wrote: »
    There was an episode of TOS where they did an intra-ship transport and it was a super risky move - I mean they did it on Enterprise once and it worked and the TOS one ('Day of the Dove') didn't kill anyone either, but it doesn't sound like it's considered safe like it is in TNG.
    You mean riskier that certain death?

    Michael's emotional over-expressing at some point almost made us quit watching the show but the final episode made up for some of it. I hope they fix her in the next season though, she seems to be buggy even for a human. And while they are at it they hopefully also fix her hair-do.
    Von wegen harmlos und flauschig! Die [Mirror] Tribbles rekrutieren wieder. Euch erwarten: Starbase lvl. 134, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft.
  • KaiteeKaitee ✭✭✭✭✭
    You mean riskier that certain death?

    Fair point (my brain actually went off on a tangent and was thinking about the other times people were just booking it through corridors for various reasons - like if they'd just beamed from the lab to the shuttlebay Michael would've had time for a whole different self-help session before they had to take off). Maybe part of damage control when they seal off a section (or tried to, except Bob had to close the second door manually) is also polarising (or whatever) the hull and deck plating around the damaged area so it helps contain the blast, but that also interferes with transporting - like if the door had worked automatically they fully intended for that room to be sealed and blown up, so doing that assumes you're writing off anyone still inside, I dunno (just making stuff up).

    Or maybe last time they did an intra-ship transport everyone felt super awkward delivering the letter saying "Dear Mr and Mrs Redshirt, we accidentally turned your son inside-out, but he was gonna die anyway," so they just decided if someone locks themselves in a room from now on, you leave it alone.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I’m looking forward to the whole Discovery crew and ship going bye-bye and carrying on with Pike, Number One, Spock, and the Enterprise. I think it would be cool to just go that route
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    I’m looking forward to the whole Discovery crew and ship going bye-bye and carrying on with Pike, Number One, Spock, and the Enterprise. I think it would be cool to just go that route

    "Star Trek: Destiny"
    Remember that time Scott vented on the Forums?!?!?
  • JeanLucKirkJeanLucKirk ✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    I’m looking forward to the whole Discovery crew and ship going bye-bye and carrying on with Pike, Number One, Spock, and the Enterprise.

    The ending moments looked more like a teaser for a new Pike series. And Anson Mount rocked the role. I would like to see further adventures of him and the others 2. But as an addition to Discovery, not the end of it. For a simple reason:

    A Pike series would be walking on familiar ground again. Be limitting for the writers. Cause they have to kinda fit it into the canon which is important for many fans. As we saw this caused many problems for Discovery already. The "We will not talk about the Discovery and her crew"-way out of this problem was quite cheap and constructed really.

    Now with season 3 Discovery is freed from all limitations. Finally no more prequel stuff, finally we move ahead to the future: New planets, new alliances, new enemies. Finally a ship and their crew can boldly go where no man has walked before again.


  • Commander SinclairCommander Sinclair ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    I’m looking forward to the whole Discovery crew and ship going bye-bye and carrying on with Pike, Number One, Spock, and the Enterprise.

    The ending moments looked more like a teaser for a new Pike series. And Anson Mount rocked the role. I would like to see further adventures of him and the others 2. But as an addition to Discovery, not the end of it. For a simple reason:

    A Pike series would be walking on familiar ground again. Be limitting for the writers. Cause they have to kinda fit it into the canon which is important for many fans. As we saw this caused many problems for Discovery already. The "We will not talk about the Discovery and her crew"-way out of this problem was quite cheap and constructed really.

    Now with season 3 Discovery is freed from all limitations. Finally no more prequel stuff, finally we move ahead to the future: New planets, new alliances, new enemies. Finally a ship and their crew can boldly go where no man has walked before again.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Exactly this. Except now Discovery is in the 34th Century, and instead of being the most cutting edge ship in the Federation, she is now the most antiquated. AND stuck(?) in the Beta Quadrant. With a shipboard A.I. computer that is evolving...

    Lot's of room to play with this for storylines.

    Wasn't Agent Daniels from the 31st Century, where Time Travel seems like an every day occurrence? And now Discovery is 200 years after the Temporal Cold War? We could see Captain Braxton and Temporal Agent Seven make an appearance as well... :)
    "When the Future becomes the past, the present will become unlocked."
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    I’m looking forward to the whole Discovery crew and ship going bye-bye and carrying on with Pike, Number One, Spock, and the Enterprise.

    The ending moments looked more like a teaser for a new Pike series. And Anson Mount rocked the role. I would like to see further adventures of him and the others 2. But as an addition to Discovery, not the end of it. For a simple reason:

    A Pike series would be walking on familiar ground again. Be limitting for the writers. Cause they have to kinda fit it into the canon which is important for many fans. As we saw this caused many problems for Discovery already. The "We will not talk about the Discovery and her crew"-way out of this problem was quite cheap and constructed really.

    Now with season 3 Discovery is freed from all limitations. Finally no more prequel stuff, finally we move ahead to the future: New planets, new alliances, new enemies. Finally a ship and their crew can boldly go where no man has walked before again.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Exactly this. Except now Discovery is in the 34th Century, and instead of being the most cutting edge ship in the Federation, she is now the most antiquated. AND stuck(?) in the Beta Quadrant. With a shipboard A.I. computer that is evolving...

    Lot's of room to play with this for storylines.

    Wasn't Agent Daniels from the 31st Century, where Time Travel seems like an every day occurrence? And now Discovery is 200 years after the Temporal Cold War? We could see Captain Braxton and Temporal Agent Seven make an appearance as well... :)

    That’s a great point. If they could travel through time in Daniels’ century they certainly could 300 years later. In fact, he just had breakfast in the 31st century. About a half hour ago

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