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The Big Book of Behold Advice

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  • I bow to the thorough awesomeness of @Automaton_2000 's crew analysis skills. Just epic.
  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) Awesome two posts there. Very well said!

    2) Point of interest on the Torpedo Surgeon McCoy complaints: not all of them were about raw voyage power. The choice of SCI instead of SEC was a big part of it, and the art wasn’t maybe what we had all hoped for (though, given the challenges of that scene, I think it turned out far better than we could have expected).

    And to your point above, if McCoy were MED/SEC/ENG or MED/ENG/SEC with the same stats his voyage utility would be even more impressive compared to his overall rank. Reason being: almost every 5* that has ENG and MED has SCI; TP Chakotay, Ba’ul, DF Paris, and Mountain Climber Mayweather are notable exceptions that have other (primary) skills. 4* crew with ENG and MED are actually skewed every so slightly more to SEC (Doc La Forge, Changeling Bashir) than SCI (Lewis Zimmerman) or anything else (Rianna Mayweather’s tertiary DIP).

    This discussion leads me slightly off-track, wondering what characters we could get to fill some of these exceptionally rare voyage combos with both MED and ENG:

    -SEC: Stranded Reno, Gallatin
    -DIP: Metaphasic Shielding Crusher
    -COM: ???
  • Automaton_2000Automaton_2000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2020
    2) Point of interest on the Torpedo Surgeon McCoy complaints: not all of them were about raw voyage power. The choice of SCI instead of SEC was a big part of it, and the art wasn’t maybe what we had all hoped for (though, given the challenges of that scene, I think it turned out far better than we could have expected).

    And to your point above, if McCoy were MED/SEC/ENG or MED/ENG/SEC with the same stats his voyage utility would be even more impressive.

    Yea, my kneejerk was disappointment too since that skill set seemed A. so obvious B. more desirable and C. I wanted to back up the dil truck to dupe a big MED/ENG crew to wallpaper over a weak combo for months/years to come. I didn't mean it (all) as a prod at players, just that the first reaction is not always correct. Playing with a crew (especially with stars) and gobbling down as many different metrics as you can helps un-cloudy the water.
    This discussion leads me slightly off-track, wondering what characters we could get to fill some of these exceptionally rare voyage combos with both MED and ENG:

    -SEC: Stranded Reno, Gallatin
    -DIP: Metaphasic Shielding Crusher
    -COM: ???

    I give that thought too from time to time. I think White Rabbit's crew note includes my top two candidates: Mine Defusing Ezri for MED/ENG/SEC or CMD and Galorndon Core Geordi for ENG/MED/SEC.

    I wouldn't whine if they power creeped some ST:Picard crew and gave us a healthy eng/med combo there. Maybe a Romulan, since they're so under-represented in game.
    Reason being: almost every 5* that has ENG and MED has SCI

    Yea, there are a handful of rarer ones nowadays:

    a8danrw2tell.png

    and SCI + MED/ENG individually are already more common pairings than CMD, DIP, or SEC + ENG or MED.
  • Thanks for the great work on this, it's extremely valuable! One thought I had regarding the comment that the document is more geared towards newer players... why not have a tier number for versatility and a separate tier number for toolbox/specificity? Cater to both crowds in other words, since you're thinking about it anyway.
  • Automaton_2000Automaton_2000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2020
    Thanks for the great work on this, it's extremely valuable! One thought I had regarding the comment that the document is more geared towards newer players... why not have a tier number for versatility and a separate tier number for toolbox/specificity? Cater to both crowds in other words, since you're thinking about it anyway.

    Not enough info in there for ya? Trying to kill me? :)

    The short answer is time. Anything new that's not automated has to be done 700+ times. And with tiering already being the majority of our discussion time, it's simply not viable.

    I've long fantasized about grading each crew on a variety of attributes (base/event/voyage/gauntlet/arena/skill set/etc.) and then letting the user input how they value each of those - either on a number scale, or simply by order - and the sheet would output custom tier rankings. That may be the next step going forward, but there would still be a big element of subjectivity from our grading (how can you 'objectively' grade arena crew or account for future event potential?) and I imagine it would take a TON of fine tuning to avoid some really wonky results.

    The biggest issue is the decay of grades over time. Instead of looking at one number for each crew against the field, you're looking at 10 numbers and all shift and droop over time. There's also the fact that we don't have precise enough metrics for certain fields E.G. a voyage ranking that accounts for skill set.
  • Thanks for the great work on this, it's extremely valuable! One thought I had regarding the comment that the document is more geared towards newer players... why not have a tier number for versatility and a separate tier number for toolbox/specificity? Cater to both crowds in other words, since you're thinking about it anyway.

    Not enough info in there for ya? Trying to kill me? :)

    The short answer is time. Anything new that's not automated has to be done 700+ times. And with tiering already being the majority of our discussion time, it's simply not viable.

    I've long fantasized about grading each crew on a variety of attributes (base/event/voyage/gauntlet/arena/skill set/etc.) and then letting the user input how they value each of those - either on a number scale, or simply by order - and the sheet would output custom tier rankings. That may be the next step going forward, but there would still be a big element of subjectivity from our grading (how can you 'objectively' grade arena crew or account for future event potential?) and I imagine it would take a TON of fine tuning to avoid some really wonky results.

    The biggest issue is the decay of grades over time. Instead of looking at one number for each crew against the field, you're looking at 10 numbers and all shift and droop over time. There's also the fact that we don't have precise enough metrics for certain fields E.G. a voyage ranking that accounts for skill set.

    Makes sense - thanks again to you and all the contributors!
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Automaton_2000

    Nice work as always ...

    I was going to write a post in the event thread on how I don't understand the negativity towards T'Pol and you've summed it up nicely here. MED is a primary skill.

    In my example:
    - I have both Dr. Pulaski and Defensive Phlox, at 1/5.

    (won't go into detail of how I get the following numbers but ...)
    - If I look at how T'Pol ranks against both, using my personal voyage ranking system, which incorporates skill combo and voyage-total numbers ... T'Pol comes out better over both: T'Pol (85,4), Pulaski (80,5) and Phlox (75,3) with a 5* crew average of 22,8.

    - If I incorporate the BB's ranking system numbers, the three score: T'Pol (28,5), Phlox (25,1) and Pulaski (20,1) and a 5* crew average of 4,5.
    The switch between Pulaski and Phlox is interesting and comes down to the fact that BB factors in gauntlet and events, for which Pulaski is both meh ... but here's hoping for a Caregiver mega!

    - Almost all these numbers are between 1 and 2 standard deviations above the norm for my crew, this will only be higher if you don't own the likes of Pulaski or Phlox.

    - For voyage numbers in general ... the SEC/MED and SCI/MED combos are #12 and #13 in strength with my crew ... and this cannot be much different for the average crew players own ... T'Pol would improve both ... and I've not yet hit 10 hrs with either combo.

    I wrote the above this morning but didn't post it ...

    As for most wanted skill combo for me (for voyages) ... ENG/MED/SEC in that exact order ... so that's another La Forge. :)
    Of crew skill combos that exist and are rare for me ... SCI/SEC/MED - Bem and MED/ENG/SCI - Imprinted Archer.
  • Veterinary PhloxVeterinary Phlox ✭✭✭✭✭
    The new spreadsheet is great!
    Circling back around to Twlight T'Pol, I can't count the number of rosters I've looked at since I started playing. Breaking them down manually or using some IAP/IAmTosk print-outs, the one thing as constant as the northern star (shoutout to my boy Torpedo McCoy. this is what we call foreshadowing) was a lack of MED.
    Always nice to know I'm not just the victim of bad RNG.

    I've been playing for about 18 months, and prior to the 4th Anniversary I'd acquired 60 legendary characters. Only four had MED has primary or secondary, and only two of those were drops.

    And then in the past few weeks I've had six begolds and gotten three excellent med primaries. I may not be able to predict the Great Material Continuum, but right now I'm enjoying the ride.
    Six degrees in Inter-species Veterinary Medicine. Treating all manner of critters, from Tribbles to Humans.

    Starport
  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brilliant and much appreciated work, @Automaton_2000! I don't have enough of a grasp of stats to offer anything about the nuts and bolts of the Big Book, but I do have a minor request. In the Voyage Rank column, could I persuade you to either remove the "#" in front of the numbers or add leading zeroes? I ask because sorting presently returns:

    #1
    #10
    #100
    ...
    #109
    #11
    #110
  • Captain IdolCaptain Idol ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brilliant and much appreciated work, @Automaton_2000! I don't have enough of a grasp of stats to offer anything about the nuts and bolts of the Big Book, but I do have a minor request. In the Voyage Rank column, could I persuade you to either remove the "#" in front of the numbers or add leading zeroes? I ask because sorting presently returns:

    #1
    #10
    #100
    ...
    #109
    #11
    #110

    I think we come to a few problems with how Sheets itself presents data and perhaps someone more experience with data handling and spreadsheet wizardry would handle this.

    Removing the hash is an easy solution but would not solve the problem, as I have tested before the sorting still favors this relative form of sorting instead of doing it the obvious way.
    Since this links from a few other sheets (using IMPORTRANGE and QUERY tags) to move data about some elements are lost in conversion (such as rich text data, something we spent a while trying to solve).
    So one obvious solution would be to change all values on the source sheet to 001, 002, 003 etc. Fantastic, problem solved! No...1) There is a metric shitload of data to convert, of which converting can cause numerous issues across a number of sheets. 2) changing the data from 1 to 001 didn't always work, cell formats for numeric values isn't always consistent and changing it across something like hundreds of thousands of cells as said would cause untold issues in other areas.

    Using sheets to link other sheets is a fickle thing, one wrong cell entry can derail the entire sheet however the benefits are that the end product, a tiered list of crew people can rate is a quicker product for those who use it.
    For voyage ranks and metrics like that I would recommend using Paladin's L100 Sheet with all crew data in it and has an ordered voyage ranking, and if you want to see it with your own personal crew feel free to use my Datacore Analysis Sheet.

    TL:DR - Sheets is a great online spreadsheet tool, but it's not as flexible as it's desktop counterparts.
  • Thank you for your efforts and contribution @[ISA] Big McLargeHuge . This is both an extremely useful, as well as entertaining resource, in large part due to your contribution.
  • Thanks for your work @[ISA] Big McLargeHuge :) RL comes 1st and feel free to check back in
  • Good luck out out there, @[ISA] Big McLargeHuge . I'll miss seeing you around the forum. Hope you stop in from time to time if you're in the thread about Star Trek Picard. :)
    Forum recruiter for [10F], +FH+, and [10FA]
    Ten Forward Loungers - Give Your Best, Get Our Best!
    Chat with us on Discord: https://discord.gg/hg8ZRyn
  • Captain IdolCaptain Idol ✭✭✭✭✭
    For those joining us there is a fancy little Changelog at the bottom of the main page. So you can see just how much we hate that crew. Goodbye!
  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    @[ISA] Big McLargeHuge, your contributions both here and on the forum in general, not to mention your appreciation for MST3K, will be missed.
  • CuttysarkCuttysark ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    To that end, we have (and will) adjusted the tiers of several crew who are stronger for 'daily use' (voyages), but lack longer term perks like collections, events, gauntlet, etc...

    If I am getting the full grasp of your above comment I really like the changes you are proposing. A wider view of possible uses for a crew card is always a plus in my book. Also a change log is an A+ idea! :smile:

    Hopefully these changes will bring about more relevance to using the BBoBA as a resource to new/mid-game players, like me, vs a more established player who has 300-500 immortalized crew and chases after every new (and often bizarre) 5* crew that gets squirted out of the feeding chute. (I always thought it was a bit 'top heavy' to be of use to me ... but that's just me and heresy)

    :smiley:

    Remember: it's just a game, not a matter of life and death!

    My Captain Idol's
    My DataCore page
    My Spreadsheet
  • <TGE> Darxide<TGE> Darxide ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Big thanks for reviving this project. My only criticism is that I'm not in love with the new look. It could use some formatting work. To start, perhaps split the Tiers with a whitespace like before. It's a minor complaint, though

    With everything else said here, I won't get too much into it because I simply don't have the time. Theorycrafting used to be my bread and butter. It was why I played games like this. So much number crunching and model building. These days, I find that I've grown more weary with it and leave the heavy lifting to others. But that doesn't mean I blindly follow tier lists. Never have and never will. In fact, I mostly check out the blurbs written about each new crew as the source of most of my decision making over anything else in the entire document. Comparisons to existing crew and comments about the efficacy of the particular skill set they posses are more important to me. I'm at the point you mentioned where versatility is not something I'm looking for. My crew is expansive and covers pretty much everything that can be thrown at them. Now I'm looking to push the limits of what I've got and keep punching upward. Certain goals like achieving 10-hour voyages for all skill pairs are what I'm looking towards. With that said, most Tier 3 and better are still automatic pickups for me (at least if they're event crew, to hell with the 6-packs) because I've got plenty of empty roster space at the moment. 30 free slots give me some freedom to be liberal with my acquisitions.

    tl;dr: Anybody even moderately knowledgeable with a game's systems and has a functioning critical-thinking center in their brain knows that tier lists are never the final authority nor are they the end all be all on how good particular cards are. They're simply another tool in the box.
  • CuttysarkCuttysark ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    Used your 'change log' today (to adjust my info sheets which everybody obviously think are goofy nonsense) ... I really appreciated it!!!! Toss a column in for changes in the Portal status for cards and I would buy you dinner and all the hooch ya can swill!!! >:):o:D
    Remember: it's just a game, not a matter of life and death!

    My Captain Idol's
    My DataCore page
    My Spreadsheet
  • Captain IdolCaptain Idol ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cuttysark wrote: »
    Used your 'change log' today (to adjust my info sheets which everybody obviously think are goofy nonsense) ... I really appreciated it!!!! Toss a column in for changes in the Portal status for cards and I would buy you dinner and all the hooch ya can swill!!! >:):o:D

    When a Portal update happens we'll make a note of it.
  • Captain IdolCaptain Idol ✭✭✭✭✭
    Big thanks for reviving this project. My only criticism is that I'm not in love with the new look. It could use some formatting work. To start, perhaps split the Tiers with a whitespace like before. It's a minor complaint, though.

    Using spreadsheets as a medium has it's positives and negatives. One of the main negatives is a lack of decent formatting options. We explored many ways to try and get modifiable options inbetween cells and animated gifs and such. I even went down the route of looking through scripts to try and bring about some of the features that don't translate over from Docs.
    However the main focus for me coming onto the project and moving over to Sheets was to automate the statistics/data entry/event counts and such so that Auto and the team didn't have the arduous task of updating 800+ crew members numbers every few months.
    So plus, the numbers you see on the page are up to date and change automatically when new crew is added. Minus, we lose some formatting options.
    In regards to white space I could possibly add a dummy crew in between each tier, will look into it.
  • Captain IdolCaptain Idol ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2020
    Goodbyes are always bittersweet but I wish you well on your future endeavors.
    I have now first hand witnessed the effort and skill that you put into rating crew and it's been a fantastic asset to the community and to my own understanding of how the game works. You will be missed and we (Stars, Big, Garak) will try our best to keep the book running up to your amazing standards!
  • Sad to say my time has come. I believe Stars, Idol, and others involved will continue this resource - they've put in fantastic work so far and it's meant the world to me to make these close friends and be able to work and game with them.

    Thank you to everyone who's reached out with criticism or praise over the years. It's been very rewarding to try and help others and to hear their feedback. Hope my advice didn't muck up your rosters too badly ;) LLAP 🖖

    thanks again Automaton for your hard work and wonderfully helpful resource.
  • Sad to say my time has come. I believe Stars, Idol, and others involved will continue this resource - they've put in fantastic work so far and it's meant the world to me to make these close friends and be able to work and game with them.

    Thank you to everyone who's reached out with criticism or praise over the years. It's been very rewarding to try and help others and to hear their feedback. Hope my advice didn't muck up your rosters too badly ;) LLAP 🖖

    thanks for all your work :)
  • Madman1Madman1 ✭✭✭
    Sad to say my time has come. I believe Stars, Idol, and others involved will continue this resource - they've put in fantastic work so far and it's meant the world to me to make these close friends and be able to work and game with them.

    Thank you to everyone who's reached out with criticism or praise over the years. It's been very rewarding to try and help others and to hear their feedback. Hope my advice didn't muck up your rosters too badly ;) LLAP 🖖

    Thanks for all your hard work and sage advice. Its sad to see you go but I wish you well in your future endeavours.
  • Ok, so I haven’t been to this thread in a while so I’ve missed some things obviously and there’s just SO much material to read through and I’m busy like every other human being, so I was hoping someone could summarize for me what’s happened?

    I know the format and people doing the Big Book have changed but that’s it. Who is it now? Why is it in this annoying spreadsheet format now? (No offense to spreadsheet lovers) Is the BBoBA still being updated with new crew and revisions of older crew? I’m asking because this is a resource I’ve come to rely on and rather like. Any help?
    Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
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