Vice Admiral Janeway - Criminal?

I would argue that this Janeway should have the criminal trait since she is a time criminal of the highest order with multiple accounts if breaking the temporal prime directive.
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Comments

  • Agreed. I guess if Vice Admiral Janeway was a criminal Rogue Harry Kim would be as well
  • robownagerobownage ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's debatable. But certainly she's a temporal agent.

    100%

    Not convinced for Criminal.
  • Both VA Janeway & Rouge Kim should have the criminal triat.
    If you remember the episode where Voyager crashed into an icy tomb.(I watched the episode a few weeks ago)
    Harry and Chakotay had 'stolen' tech from Starfleet Intelligence, the Borg cortical node, as well as the Delta Flyer.
    They were pursued by Capt. La Forge whos mission was to 'apprehend' them. And as La Forge said to them "I cant let you change the timeline, I've got 15 years to protect." Something to that effect. Hence... criminals.
    I know we're not talking about Harry or Chuckles, but to make my point.
    The same rules would apply to Janeway as well.
    Her being Vice-Adm and a Starfleet officer, she is bound by the same rules as every other member of Starfleet and be setting the example of upholding the prime directives, temporal in this case.
    She changed or manipulated the timeline to benefit the Voyager crew. Even if the outcome was for good, the crew getting home earlier and no deaths, procured new ship armor technology, & Borg eliminated.(Maybe? Wait for Picard to explain that.)
    The fact remains, she violated her oath to Starfleet and used/abused her power to alter the timeline. She broke the temporal prime directive. Hence.. Criminal!
    Just keep in mind that VA Janeway was the future version of Capt. Janeway from the "other" timeline, not the one that brought Voyager home from the Borg conduit.
  • robownage wrote: »
    Not convinced for Criminal.

    Ask the Borg what they think...

    😆😆😆😆😆😆😆👍
  • (HGH)Apollo(HGH)Apollo ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5
    Both VA Janeway & Rouge Kim should have the criminal triat.
    If you remember the episode where Voyager crashed into an icy tomb.(I watched the episode a few weeks ago)
    Harry and Chakotay had 'stolen' tech from Starfleet Intelligence, the Borg cortical node, as well as the Delta Flyer.
    They were pursued by Capt. La Forge whos mission was to 'apprehend' them. And as La Forge said to them "I cant let you change the timeline, I've got 15 years to protect." Something to that effect. Hence... criminals.
    I know we're not talking about Harry or Chuckles, but to make my point.
    The same rules would apply to Janeway as well.
    Her being Vice-Adm and a Starfleet officer, she is bound by the same rules as every other member of Starfleet and be setting the example of upholding the prime directives, temporal in this case.
    She changed or manipulated the timeline to benefit the Voyager crew. Even if the outcome was for good, the crew getting home earlier and no deaths, procured new ship armor technology, & Borg eliminated.(Maybe? Wait for Picard to explain that.)
    The fact remains, she violated her oath to Starfleet and used/abused her power to alter the timeline. She broke the temporal prime directive. Hence.. Criminal!
    Just keep in mind that VA Janeway was the future version of Capt. Janeway from the "other" timeline, not the one that brought Voyager home from the Borg conduit.

    Kirk and crew changed the timeline when they went back and got whales in Voyage Home. Are they criminals?
  • [/quote] Kirk and crew changed the timeline when they went back and got whales in Voyage Home. Are they criminals? [/quote]

    Watch the movie at the end. Your argument is invalid. Listen to what the president says.
    They stood trial for rescuing Spock and all the dirty deeds they did.
    The whales saved Earth from destruction. And Adrimal Kirk was solely punished by being demoted.
  • Both VA Janeway & Rouge Kim should have the criminal triat.
    If you remember the episode where Voyager crashed into an icy tomb.(I watched the episode a few weeks ago)
    Harry and Chakotay had 'stolen' tech from Starfleet Intelligence, the Borg cortical node, as well as the Delta Flyer.
    They were pursued by Capt. La Forge whos mission was to 'apprehend' them. And as La Forge said to them "I cant let you change the timeline, I've got 15 years to protect." Something to that effect. Hence... criminals.
    I know we're not talking about Harry or Chuckles, but to make my point.
    The same rules would apply to Janeway as well.
    Her being Vice-Adm and a Starfleet officer, she is bound by the same rules as every other member of Starfleet and be setting the example of upholding the prime directives, temporal in this case.
    She changed or manipulated the timeline to benefit the Voyager crew. Even if the outcome was for good, the crew getting home earlier and no deaths, procured new ship armor technology, & Borg eliminated.(Maybe? Wait for Picard to explain that.)
    The fact remains, she violated her oath to Starfleet and used/abused her power to alter the timeline. She broke the temporal prime directive. Hence.. Criminal!
    Just keep in mind that VA Janeway was the future version of Capt. Janeway from the "other" timeline, not the one that brought Voyager home from the Borg conduit.

    Are u sure the borg equipment Harry and Chakotay stolen is borg cortical node?
    Borg cortical node is a borg implant which plays a crucial part in borg drone.
    In fact, they stolen a borg temporal transmitter
  • HaBlackHaBlack ✭✭✭✭
    Kamikawa4 wrote: »
    I would argue that this Janeway should have the criminal trait since she is a time criminal of the highest order with multiple accounts if breaking the temporal prime directive.

    zjukqzcm8a79.gif
    PlayingSince: 2016-09-16
    Can we get some more characters from TAS?
    Character wishlist:
    • Lieutenant M'Ress
    • Amanda Rogers got her
    • Admiral S'rrel from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
    • Agmar
    USS NO - Join easy going fleet with Starbase lvl 125
  • Kamikawa4 wrote: »
    Agreed. I guess if Vice Admiral Janeway was a criminal Rogue Harry Kim would be as well

    Don't really care about the criminal trait (if everyone else with a similar background gets it too, then it would at least be another useful trait).

    But thinking of the discussion about this Janeway's name, I would have liked "Rogue Admiral Janeway" a lot :smiley:
  • Only thing criminal about this is we have another Janeway so soon after a Janeway mega event..... >:) :p :D
    Dear DB: Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.
  • AviTrek wrote: »
    Both VA Janeway & Rouge Kim should have the criminal triat.
    If you remember the episode where Voyager crashed into an icy tomb.(I watched the episode a few weeks ago)
    Harry and Chakotay had 'stolen' tech from Starfleet Intelligence, the Borg cortical node, as well as the Delta Flyer.
    They were pursued by Capt. La Forge whos mission was to 'apprehend' them. And as La Forge said to them "I cant let you change the timeline, I've got 15 years to protect." Something to that effect. Hence... criminals.
    I know we're not talking about Harry or Chuckles, but to make my point.
    The same rules would apply to Janeway as well.
    Her being Vice-Adm and a Starfleet officer, she is bound by the same rules as every other member of Starfleet and be setting the example of upholding the prime directives, temporal in this case.
    She changed or manipulated the timeline to benefit the Voyager crew. Even if the outcome was for good, the crew getting home earlier and no deaths, procured new ship armor technology, & Borg eliminated.(Maybe? Wait for Picard to explain that.)
    The fact remains, she violated her oath to Starfleet and used/abused her power to alter the timeline. She broke the temporal prime directive. Hence.. Criminal!
    Just keep in mind that VA Janeway was the future version of Capt. Janeway from the "other" timeline, not the one that brought Voyager home from the Borg conduit.

    Kirk and crew changed the timeline when they went back and got whales in Voyage Home. Are they criminals?

    Kirk and crew didn't change the timeline. They changed the future from the point where they returned. But that's like any action you take. Changing the timeline would be telling humans in 1980s to stop killing whales and therefore whales survived to the 23rd century and the probe never needed to come check out earth.

    They altered many things in the past including but not limited to Montgomery Scott showing the person in the past how to make high quality plastics, stealing fissionable material from a nuclear vessel in Alameda, Dr. McCoy curing the lady in the hospital of her kidney issues, and removing Dr. Gillian Taylor from the past. Any of these changes could have had dire consequences to the timeline.

    They didn't steal fissionable material. They siphoned off something from the reactor (can't remember the technobabble explanation right now), but not fissionable material.
  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    AviTrek wrote: »
    Both VA Janeway & Rouge Kim should have the criminal triat.
    If you remember the episode where Voyager crashed into an icy tomb.(I watched the episode a few weeks ago)
    Harry and Chakotay had 'stolen' tech from Starfleet Intelligence, the Borg cortical node, as well as the Delta Flyer.
    They were pursued by Capt. La Forge whos mission was to 'apprehend' them. And as La Forge said to them "I cant let you change the timeline, I've got 15 years to protect." Something to that effect. Hence... criminals.
    I know we're not talking about Harry or Chuckles, but to make my point.
    The same rules would apply to Janeway as well.
    Her being Vice-Adm and a Starfleet officer, she is bound by the same rules as every other member of Starfleet and be setting the example of upholding the prime directives, temporal in this case.
    She changed or manipulated the timeline to benefit the Voyager crew. Even if the outcome was for good, the crew getting home earlier and no deaths, procured new ship armor technology, & Borg eliminated.(Maybe? Wait for Picard to explain that.)
    The fact remains, she violated her oath to Starfleet and used/abused her power to alter the timeline. She broke the temporal prime directive. Hence.. Criminal!
    Just keep in mind that VA Janeway was the future version of Capt. Janeway from the "other" timeline, not the one that brought Voyager home from the Borg conduit.

    Kirk and crew changed the timeline when they went back and got whales in Voyage Home. Are they criminals?

    Kirk and crew didn't change the timeline. They changed the future from the point where they returned. But that's like any action you take. Changing the timeline would be telling humans in 1980s to stop killing whales and therefore whales survived to the 23rd century and the probe never needed to come check out earth.

    They altered many things in the past including but not limited to Montgomery Scott showing the person in the past how to make high quality plastics, stealing fissionable material from a nuclear vessel in Alameda, Dr. McCoy curing the lady in the hospital of her kidney issues, and removing Dr. Gillian Taylor from the past. Any of these changes could have had dire consequences to the timeline.

    They didn't steal fissionable material. They siphoned off something from the reactor (can't remember the technobabble explanation right now), but not fissionable material.

    “High energy photons” was the specific term used. To anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of nuclear physics, that should mean “gamma radiation” but the Ranger’s Enterprise’s bridge officers noticed that they were suffering a power loss, which suggests neutrons were being collected instead (thus decreasing the reactivity and therefore power output of the reactor). Granted, neutron radiation shouldn’t be flowing into a compartment open to crew, though I think that can be explained away though the magic of the radiation collector.

    In summary, whether they were breaking physics by actually stealing gamma radiation or non-physicists were writing those scenes, no fissionable material should have been siphoned from the reactor. Someone could make the argument that fuel itself was being removed but that’s even farther away from “high energy photons” and could very well have been easier to find in a rock and mineral shop rather than a nuclear reactor, depending on the need for U-235 over U-238.
  • I hate to get technical, but in the Justice system, even that of the Federation of the future, you are NOT a criminal unless and until you are actually convicted of a crime. Just accusing someone of a crime, does not make that person a criminal.
    "When the Future becomes the past, the present will become unlocked."
  • Im pretty bummed with this card. She could have been so much better. Below is a quote of my suggestion from many weeks ago bfore they announced this card. It was in a new honor hall crew suggestions thread. So i loaded her with traits and stats to make it worth the 100k honor price.

    “End game” temporal janeway....would like to see her at some point if she is going to be loaded with all spectacular traits including criminal, rogue, crafty, thief, pilot, desperate, veteran, tactician, undercover operative, saboteur, jury rigger, besides the standard human starfleet, federation. Yes, there are alot of janeways but if this version was built with outstanding traits and use-ability across all aspects of the game with good base and proficiency stats she may be worth it. Since she wasnt really in command and did not practice much diplomacy in that ep i suggest a skillset of sci/eng/sec combo for something different. Her main purpose was to deliver and teach voyager crew on advanced weapons and defenses including a knowledge of sci and eng to accomplish the mission.”
  • GhostStalkerGhostStalker ✭✭✭✭✭
    NOT a Temporal Agent either...

    That would imply she was working for an agency, or a larger group.
  • WaldoMagWaldoMag ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8
    Both VA Janeway & Rouge Kim should have the criminal triat.
    If you remember the episode where Voyager crashed into an icy tomb.(I watched the episode a few weeks ago)
    Harry and Chakotay had 'stolen' tech from Starfleet Intelligence, the Borg cortical node, as well as the Delta Flyer.
    They were pursued by Capt. La Forge whos mission was to 'apprehend' them. And as La Forge said to them "I cant let you change the timeline, I've got 15 years to protect." Something to that effect. Hence... criminals.
    I know we're not talking about Harry or Chuckles, but to make my point.
    The same rules would apply to Janeway as well.
    Her being Vice-Adm and a Starfleet officer, she is bound by the same rules as every other member of Starfleet and be setting the example of upholding the prime directives, temporal in this case.
    She changed or manipulated the timeline to benefit the Voyager crew. Even if the outcome was for good, the crew getting home earlier and no deaths, procured new ship armor technology, & Borg eliminated.(Maybe? Wait for Picard to explain that.)
    The fact remains, she violated her oath to Starfleet and used/abused her power to alter the timeline. She broke the temporal prime directive. Hence.. Criminal!
    Just keep in mind that VA Janeway was the future version of Capt. Janeway from the "other" timeline, not the one that brought Voyager home from the Borg conduit.

    She did more than just play with the timeline. I believe the shuttle she was in was stolen. Not positive I will have to rewatch the episode. I also think there was something about containers of a chemical.

    Edit: watched some of the episode again. The chemical was an experimental drug to protect against Tachyon radiation. The doctor provides it for her. He asks why she needs it and she says it's classified. Nothing is ever mentioned that she has stolen a shuttle. She was not reported to starfleet. Harry Kim comes to get her back before she goes. He mentions he knows what she is doing and she is breaking every rule in the rule book. I would say it is even harder to claim she is a criminal because the episode is doing its best not to declare her a criminal.
  • PenguinJimPenguinJim ✭✭✭✭✭
    NOT a Temporal Agent either...

    That would imply she was working for an agency, or a larger group.

    No, "agent" doesn't have to mean working for an agency. You could be an agent of change, for example, or the agent of my destruction! It can just be someone (or even something) that makes a change.

    That seems to be how DB mean it, as Temporal Prisoner Chakotay, Temporal Shift Kes and K'mtar all have the trait, too.
  • Odo MarmarosaOdo Marmarosa ✭✭✭✭✭
    PenguinJim wrote: »
    NOT a Temporal Agent either...

    That would imply she was working for an agency, or a larger group.

    No, "agent" doesn't have to mean working for an agency. You could be an agent of change, for example, or the agent of my destruction! It can just be someone (or even something) that makes a change.

    That seems to be how DB mean it, as Temporal Prisoner Chakotay, Temporal Shift Kes and K'mtar all have the trait, too.

    Check Kes and Chakotay; they do not. It's been a while since I saw K'mtar's episode so I dont remember the particulars, but Vosk, Silik, Daniels, Braxton etc are all Temporal Agents by profession...experts in time travel acting as agents of larger organizations
  • GhostStalkerGhostStalker ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10
    PenguinJim wrote: »
    NOT a Temporal Agent either...

    That would imply she was working for an agency, or a larger group.

    No, "agent" doesn't have to mean working for an agency. You could be an agent of change, for example, or the agent of my destruction! It can just be someone (or even something) that makes a change.

    That seems to be how DB mean it, as Temporal Prisoner Chakotay, Temporal Shift Kes and K'mtar all have the trait, too.

    Either way, I've been thinking about it, and this <snip> ~Shan is DEFINITELY a criminal.

    On the run from both the Federation AND the Klingon Empire.
  • PenguinJimPenguinJim ✭✭✭✭✭

    PenguinJim wrote: »
    NOT a Temporal Agent either...

    That would imply she was working for an agency, or a larger group.

    No, "agent" doesn't have to mean working for an agency. You could be an agent of change, for example, or the agent of my destruction! It can just be someone (or even something) that makes a change.

    That seems to be how DB mean it, as Temporal Prisoner Chakotay, Temporal Shift Kes and K'mtar all have the trait, too.

    Check Kes and Chakotay; they do not. It's been a while since I saw K'mtar's episode so I dont remember the particulars, but Vosk, Silik, Daniels, Braxton etc are all Temporal Agents by profession...experts in time travel acting as agents of larger organizations

    Ha, I was thinking Chakotay had it from memory, but I was stupid enough to search for "temporal" in the vault and that's why I thought Kes had it!

    But the English definition and K'mtar both stand, so it's not unprecedented and no "agency" is needed.
  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Set aside anything Admiral Kirk and his crew did in The Voyage Home; there were charges pending against them in the 23rd Century for criminal acts committed in The Search For Spock. They were criminals for most of those two movies until the charges against them were dropped. Now, if we want to debate the semantics that they couldn't be criminals in the 20th Century because their crimes of the 23rd hadn't yet been committed, that still leaves Undercover Sulu and Commander Uhura as criminals who had conspired to steal the Enterprise, etc. Pretty sure the U.S. Navy regarded Commander Chekov as a criminal for sneaking onto their Enterprise, too.

    Obviously, Spock was not part of any of this, but it's worth remembering that David Marcus confessed to Saavik that he'd illegally used protomatter in Genesis, so he, too, ought to have the trait.
  • The reason VA Janeway and all the examples given here do not have the criminal trait is because of one of the core themes of Star Trek - the ends justify the means... If it involves a main character. Every main character in Star Trek breaks the rules in one episode of another and the most they get is a stern talking to. Paris getting demoted is maybe the harshest punishment but he is promoted back up again in like the next episode so it may as well never have happened.
  • Zann CalcoreZann Calcore ✭✭✭✭
    Kamikawa4 wrote: »
    Agreed. I guess if Vice Admiral Janeway was a criminal Rogue Harry Kim would be as well

    Rogue Harry Kim SHOULD be a Criminal since in that episode he was one, hence the name, Rogue Harry Kim. He’s a Rogue because he’s a Criminal, which means also, due to the nature of his crime, he should also likely have the Thief trait, but this is all discussion for a very specific thread. I don’t have the link but I’m sure someone else does.
    Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
  • Odo MarmarosaOdo Marmarosa ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are so few Criminals in the game they fit in one screenshot:

    l6rj41ffusx3.jpg

    They are, for the most part, either professional criminals ("the usual suspects"), dressed as criminals, or someone legally convicted of a serious crime.
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