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Key information about the event: Secrets in the Desert - 11/07

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  • Ren~Ren~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shan wrote: »
    Torchbearer Voq will count as a variant of Tyler.

    This doesn't make sense according to the lore of Star Trek but oh well, I suppose people are more interested in inflating the bonus crew count than in Star Trek cannon. :D
  • robownagerobownage ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Shan wrote: »
    Torchbearer Voq will count as a variant of Tyler.

    This doesn't make sense according to the lore of Star Trek but oh well, I suppose people are more interested in inflating the bonus crew count than in Star Trek cannon. :D

    I'm sorry, but how does it not make sense? The Tyler we know in Discovery is Voq; we've never seen the original human version. And Torchbearer Tyler is definitely a Tyler we saw on the show.
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can kind of see it both ways. Voq became Tyler later. But, Tyler {in the show, as far as we know} has always been Voq. So, I am fine with either interpretation of Voq being or not being Tyler........
    Keep calm & October 15th!!!!!
  • Ren~ wrote: »
    Shan wrote: »
    Torchbearer Voq will count as a variant of Tyler.

    This doesn't make sense according to the lore of Star Trek but oh well, I suppose people are more interested in inflating the bonus crew count than in Star Trek cannon. :D

    w6iw5fd9va6u.jpeg

    Just lol.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Shan wrote: »
    Torchbearer Voq will count as a variant of Tyler.

    This doesn't make sense according to the lore of Star Trek but oh well, I suppose people are more interested in inflating the bonus crew count than in Star Trek cannon. :D

    w6iw5fd9va6u.jpeg


    That’s awesome!!
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Shan wrote: »
    Torchbearer Voq will count as a variant of Tyler.

    This doesn't make sense according to the lore of Star Trek but oh well, I suppose people are more interested in inflating the bonus crew count than in Star Trek cannon. :D

    w6iw5fd9va6u.jpeg

    yozieniqo7y3.jpg
    Keep calm & October 15th!!!!!
  • Beardy Tyler is great and all, but I won't be satisfied until we get the non-canon "Clem Fandango" Tyler.

    Or better yet, "Clem Fandango" Voq.
    Six degrees in Inter-species Veterinary Medicine. Treating all manner of critters, from Tribbles to Humans.
  • Hasedoki wrote: »
    Beardy Tyler is great and all, but I won't be satisfied until we get the non-canon "Clem Fandango" Tyler.

    Or better yet, "Clem Fandango" Voq.

    I hope his move is called "Can you hear me?"
  • Ren~Ren~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Apagg wrote: »
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Shan wrote: »
    Torchbearer Voq will count as a variant of Tyler.

    This doesn't make sense according to the lore of Star Trek but oh well, I suppose people are more interested in inflating the bonus crew count than in Star Trek cannon. :D

    Is there anything about this game that makes you happy?

    Yes, the satisfaction of getting pointless answers like that! :)
    But since you insisted, it's a forum to give feedback and I don't feel the need to talk about what works right (there are a few things that do) as I've already done it in the past. What works right needs no change and I'm not wasting time with that. That being said you do you, if you feel like doing that be my guest.
  • eXo | das411eXo | das411 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mejoyh wrote: »
    Does Voq count as a Tyler variant?

    Interesting debate but if we go by chronology, Torchbearer Voq is before he has the real Ash Tyler memory engrams added/overlain/fused/boot-laced to his own. So in theory Tyler is always a Voq variant (unless the real Ash Tyler get's revealed and has his revenge in season 3). But Klingon Voq (i.e. pre-surgical changes both neurological and physiological) is just Voq.

    what if we find out in season three that he was
    a terminator an android like juliana tainer
    the whole time? :)

    or is....
    Species 8472 who manipulated the spore network to create fluidic space

    Or maybe...
    a centuries-old Changeling who'd made it all the way to the Alpha Quandrant and somehow got stuck in a solid state while impersonating Tyler?

    or what if
    Tyler is actually Odo and discovery is all one of benny russell's crazy stories and that explains everything that doesn't make sense? :)
  • It's simple logic syllogism really: all Tylers are Voqs, but not all Voqs are Tylers.
  • (HGH)Apollo(HGH)Apollo ✭✭✭✭✭
    adonibyte. wrote: »
    It's simple logic syllogism really: all Tylers are Voqs, but not all Voqs are Tylers.

    5tqquyl3c7fg.jpg
  • Mirror SanoaMirror Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    Based on what I learned here about the story recently I would say that alle Voqs are Tylers and vice versa except for Tylers after L'Rell removed Voq's concience from his body.

    But this is impossible to track for the normal player. And a hologram that looks like Sisko but has zero of his personality (Dr. Hippocrates Noah) still counts as a Sisko variant...

    So for consistency reasons I hope that for all times each and every version of Tyler and Voq will count as variants of both.
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can kind of see it both ways. Voq became Tyler later. But, Tyler {in the show, as far as we know} has always been Voq. So, I am fine with either interpretation of Voq being or not being Tyler........

    It kind of runs a bit deeper than this though. Eventually Tyler's memory engrams replaced/conquered Voq's engrams. After that point Voq only existed from Tyler's memory of him being inside him if that makes sense. So in theory it get's to the point where Tyler becomes just Tyler and not Voq.
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Based on what I learned here about the story recently I would say that alle Voqs are Tylers and vice versa except for Tylers after L'Rell removed Voq's concience from his body.

    But this is impossible to track for the normal player. And a hologram that looks like Sisko but has zero of his personality (Dr. Hippocrates Noah) still counts as a Sisko variant...

    So for consistency reasons I hope that for all times each and every version of Tyler and Voq will count as variants of both.

    Your analogy is slightly off though Noah was Sisko, Sisko (et al) were trapped in a holoprogram it was the only way the DS9 computer could store the transporter data stream and thus their "patterns".

    Torchbearer Voq is an anomaly because he is a character, clearly depicted before he had any of the espionage type surgery alteration.

    I would say son of none is a Voq, Lt and Celebratory Ash Tyler is a Voq because it is more or less depicting his time of service on discovery and thus when Voq was present.

    A Section 31 Tyler however I would argue is no longer a Voq.

    It is actually for me quite controversial as on the other side DB decided to remove Bajoran trait from Kazon Seska because it was a time and place of a character who was not Bajoran. So this is heavily inconsistent to my mind.
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  • Mirror SanoaMirror Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Based on what I learned here about the story recently I would say that alle Voqs are Tylers and vice versa except for Tylers after L'Rell removed Voq's concience from his body.

    But this is impossible to track for the normal player. And a hologram that looks like Sisko but has zero of his personality (Dr. Hippocrates Noah) still counts as a Sisko variant...

    So for consistency reasons I hope that for all times each and every version of Tyler and Voq will count as variants of both.

    Your analogy is slightly off though Noah was Sisko, Sisko (et al) were trapped in a holoprogram it was the only way the DS9 computer could store the transporter data stream and thus their "patterns".

    Torchbearer Voq is an anomaly because he is a character, clearly depicted before he had any of the espionage type surgery alteration.

    I would say son of none is a Voq, Lt and Celebratory Ash Tyler is a Voq because it is more or less depicting his time of service on discovery and thus when Voq was present.

    A Section 31 Tyler however I would argue is no longer a Voq.

    It is actually for me quite controversial as on the other side DB decided to remove Bajoran trait from Kazon Seska because it was a time and place of a character who was not Bajoran. So this is heavily inconsistent to my mind.

    Tyler is at any point in time still in Voq's body even when Voq's concience is gone. I do not see too much of a difference to a hologram conserving the physical pattern - for the purpose of variant questions. Mirror characters are at no point in time the same person as the first universe charakter, still they are considered as variants.

    I think the community is overcomplicating here, and I am really hoping that DB does not jump on board with the hair splitting going on in this thread but sticks for all upcoming variants and events to what Shan stated here.

    /edit: I do not quite get the Seska question. She was a Cardassian altered to look like a Bajoran. When they changed that back, why should she still have the Bajoran trait? This would not make any sense to me (would be like Kira forever counting as Cardassian after her "Cardassian Kira" surgery). There might be opposing examples but I would rather consider those faulty than Seska.
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  • Ren~Ren~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Based on what I learned here about the story recently I would say that alle Voqs are Tylers and vice versa except for Tylers after L'Rell removed Voq's concience from his body.

    But this is impossible to track for the normal player. And a hologram that looks like Sisko but has zero of his personality (Dr. Hippocrates Noah) still counts as a Sisko variant...

    So for consistency reasons I hope that for all times each and every version of Tyler and Voq will count as variants of both.

    No, they're always separate people. Tyler's personality has been added to Voq's altered body but until Voq wakes up he's Tyler only. When that happens he has Voq moments such as a little murder in the sick bay, and what we see afterwards is a struggle between the two (separate) personalities, and for some reason, Tyler, whose consciousness was supposed to go away, finds a way to anchor himself because he loves Michael. We're still talking about two separate people in one body. Tyler then becomes the dominant personality and L'Rell removes Voq; Voq then becomes memories Tyler can feely access but Voq is gone. At no point were they mixed or the same person. The fact that you read an autobiography doesn't mean you become someone else. Sharing memories implies nothing more than that.
  • Mirror SanoaMirror Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Based on what I learned here about the story recently I would say that alle Voqs are Tylers and vice versa except for Tylers after L'Rell removed Voq's concience from his body.

    But this is impossible to track for the normal player. And a hologram that looks like Sisko but has zero of his personality (Dr. Hippocrates Noah) still counts as a Sisko variant...

    So for consistency reasons I hope that for all times each and every version of Tyler and Voq will count as variants of both.

    No, they're always separate people. Tyler's personality has been added to Voq's altered body but until Voq wakes up he's Tyler only. When that happens he has Voq moments such as a little murder in the sick bay, and what we see afterwards is a struggle between the two (separate) personalities, and for some reason, Tyler, whose consciousness was supposed to go away, finds a way to anchor himself because he loves Michael. We're still talking about two separate people in one body. Tyler then becomes the dominant personality and L'Rell removes Voq; Voq then becomes memories Tyler can feely access but Voq is gone. At no point were they mixed or the same person. The fact that you read an autobiography doesn't mean you become someone else. Sharing memories implies nothing more than that.

    If you see it like that I would argue that there had never been a Tyler in the series as he was dead already when the character was introduced. It was always Voq.

    Did I mention hair splitting already?
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Just to add Torchbearer Voq is presurgery therefore not Tyler, and that was my point on removing Bajoran from Kazon Seska - as she was not Bajoran - I agree with this. But the point then is why should Tyler be added to Torchbearer Voq.

    I made no mention to mirror universe - my hypothetical Section 31 Tyler would be after L'Rell removing Voq from Tyler, therefore arguably not Voq. Although you could argue in a corporeal sense he is Voq.

    Back to the DS9 analogy in the episode it was raised in the story that if you killed the character eg if you killed Noah you risked killing Sisko, ergo Noah is Sisko. When the holoprogram gets concluded Sisko is in Noah's attire therefore reaffirming that the characters are actually the real people transposed whilst the holoprogram was running and at the time of the transporter incident.
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Based on what I learned here about the story recently I would say that alle Voqs are Tylers and vice versa except for Tylers after L'Rell removed Voq's concience from his body.

    But this is impossible to track for the normal player. And a hologram that looks like Sisko but has zero of his personality (Dr. Hippocrates Noah) still counts as a Sisko variant...

    So for consistency reasons I hope that for all times each and every version of Tyler and Voq will count as variants of both.

    No, they're always separate people. Tyler's personality has been added to Voq's altered body but until Voq wakes up he's Tyler only. When that happens he has Voq moments such as a little murder in the sick bay, and what we see afterwards is a struggle between the two (separate) personalities, and for some reason, Tyler, whose consciousness was supposed to go away, finds a way to anchor himself because he loves Michael. We're still talking about two separate people in one body. Tyler then becomes the dominant personality and L'Rell removes Voq; Voq then becomes memories Tyler can feely access but Voq is gone. At no point were they mixed or the same person. The fact that you read an autobiography doesn't mean you become someone else. Sharing memories implies nothing more than that.

    If you see it like that I would argue that there had never been a Tyler in the series as he was dead already when the character was introduced. It was always Voq.

    Did I mention hair splitting already?

    It's not confirmed the "real" Tyler was killed at any point in the series, granted he was captured by the Klingons and it is the Klingons we are talking about, but it is still a big assumption to make nonetheless.

    You may call it splitting hairs but for me it's about being factually consistent.
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  • Ren~Ren~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Based on what I learned here about the story recently I would say that alle Voqs are Tylers and vice versa except for Tylers after L'Rell removed Voq's concience from his body.

    But this is impossible to track for the normal player. And a hologram that looks like Sisko but has zero of his personality (Dr. Hippocrates Noah) still counts as a Sisko variant...

    So for consistency reasons I hope that for all times each and every version of Tyler and Voq will count as variants of both.

    No, they're always separate people. Tyler's personality has been added to Voq's altered body but until Voq wakes up he's Tyler only. When that happens he has Voq moments such as a little murder in the sick bay, and what we see afterwards is a struggle between the two (separate) personalities, and for some reason, Tyler, whose consciousness was supposed to go away, finds a way to anchor himself because he loves Michael. We're still talking about two separate people in one body. Tyler then becomes the dominant personality and L'Rell removes Voq; Voq then becomes memories Tyler can feely access but Voq is gone. At no point were they mixed or the same person. The fact that you read an autobiography doesn't mean you become someone else. Sharing memories implies nothing more than that.

    If you see it like that I would argue that there had never been a Tyler in the series as he was dead already when the character was introduced. It was always Voq.

    Did I mention hair splitting already?

    But it's Star Trek, you don't need your own body to exist, you only need your consciousness. At no point are Tyler and Voq the same person. There are two entities in one body, but in all of Star Trek they've always been seen as two entities and not one.
  • Mirror SanoaMirror Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Ren~ and @Ironagedave

    I do get your arguments and would agree to most if not all of them, I just think that for game mechanic questions this is totally irrelevant.

    MY point is that e.g. Mirror Sisko and Commander Sisko are never the same person, they never share a body or a mind. Still they are considered as variants, like all Mirror characters do.

    So what I want to say is that the game mechanics in STT are so far off from your arguments that it is unthinkable to handle SOME variants of Tyler as Voqs or SOME variants of Voq as Tylers but not all of them. This game is supposed to be playable even if you never have seen a single episode of Star Trek.

    How would you transport this specific detail rules to players who have never visited this forum or read this pathetic thread when the hidden traits are... actually hidden?
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    @Ren~ and @Ironagedave
    MY point is that e.g. Mirror Sisko and Commander Sisko are never the same person, they never share a body or a mind. Still they are considered as variants, like all Mirror characters do.
    Mirror universe is interesting, but my stance is they are the same - same DNA just environmental or experiential factors are different, constrained by the fact that it is a parallel universe.

    You could even argue well that was Captain Picard 3 weeks ago that's not the same as this one - now that really would be splitting the hair at the chroniton particle level.

    -edit doh... really got start picking a character that has hair.
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Ren~ and @Ironagedave

    How would you transport this specific detail rules to players who have never visited this forum or read this pathetic thread when the hidden traits are... actually hidden?

    The rules are always lain out in Shan's post, rules are rules, don't see why you would need to go into further explanatory detail. When the post first came out I had no expectation that Voq is considered a Tyler. Obviously it is a boon for all that he is, but I never expected it and if I didn't read this thread or a specific person ask the question we would never know... how useful this thread is.

    Now questioning rules that's fair game imo, particularly on topics such as this.
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  • Mirror SanoaMirror Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    The rules are always lain out in Shan's post, rules are rules, don't see why you would need to go into further explanatory detail.

    Not everyone speaks English nor does everyone read the forum or watch DSC. The rules should be system immanent and self explaining as soon as one understood the basic mechanisms of the game.

    In Voq's & Tyler's case they are not self explaining because character appearances and names do not provide a hint to the connection between them nor do they have a visible trait indicating it.

    Even though I basically appreciate more variants I somehow wished they were none as this gives players (capable of) reading the forum an advantage over others who are unaware of the fact. I hope they point it out on the event info screen more explicitely than in the first post of this thread.

    If DB decided to remove the variant-status from some of them or against providing it to future versions I dearly hope they remove it from ALL of them to avoid confusion.
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