Home Make It So!

Legacy Legendaries

RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 1 in Make It So!
So this thread is to gather suggestions on how Decrepit Legacy Legendaries can be obtained in-game outside of "hoping" for a random drop via a portal pull.

This is not a thread to suggest crew who "need a buff" ... the idea is, crew stats remain as is, just the ability to get stars on "older" crew is improved.
There is a monthly influx of 4-5 new 5* crew into the game, which makes it even more difficult to add stars to the older crew.

Legacy Legendary (LL)
- Crew that has been around since the start of the game and was therefore released in 2016 and/or 2017.

- Currently available in the portal, so e.g. Locutus and Bartender Guinan are NOT LLs.

- The general consensus (whether I agree or not is moot) is that these crew have weaker stats that have been power crept multiple times over and so provide limited use in the current game state. They might still have niche use, but generally only at 5/5, with the odd crew suitable for Gauntlet so 1/5 is sufficient.

Example
A prime example is Mirror T'Pol - low base stats, average proficiency stats, poor voyage stats, a common skill set that has been easily bettered by (old and new) mega-event crew (Surak and Picard & #1), etc.

Currently, her only positive is she is part of the Vulcan collection and might have a serviceable SCI base for T'Pol events (dependent on other crew), but only once 5/5 because until then she is on par with her 4* variants.
Her SCI base makes her a poor option for Vulcan etc. trait events, where 1/5 crew are already better (e.g. Science Officer Spock).

Summary List (to be updated)
(1) - Added to voyages
(2) - Era-specific packs
(3) - Mini-achievements
(4) - Added to events
(5) - ...

Posts below include more details. (more edits to come)

Comments

  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1
    (1) - Added to Voyages
    Self-explanatory ... added as random drops after 8/10 hrs, just like 4* crew.

    (4) - Added to Events
    Added to the end threshold rewards ... e.g. 400-450k VP.
    LL crew is related to one of the event crew ... so for this week's event Lightseekers, someone like Enterprise-E Picard or Lieutenant Wesley Crusher would be appropriate.

    The other 2 to come below ...
  • Prime Lorca [10FH]Prime Lorca [10FH] ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a pretty solid summary of my old thread. :) I can add a few things. First, the Decrepit Legendaries™ name is negotiable, though I thoroughly enjoy it. Legacy Legendaries or year/season indicators are acceptable alternatives. (I know @RaraRacing has been big on the idea since and maybe before I brought it up. I thank him for keeping my name for the idea.)

    Second, I would definitely like an all-of-the-above approach. I like the idea of creating packs because that requires a pool or loot table to be made. That can be used to determine voyage drops. I guess that's not really required for temporary achievements or adding them to events. It would help with an additional idea - discounted beholds in the honor hall. Maybe 30k honor for a behold of first year legendaries?

    Oh... Quick time out to thank WRG for offering the occasional 490 packs. That is a help. More $10 legendary offerings - 2 most weeks - has also been helpful.

    Thanks for renewing this idea, Rara!
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  • Prime Lorca [10FH]Prime Lorca [10FH] ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was really hoping this would get more traction. It really goes to show that The Bridge gets all the traffic.

    @RaraRacing , did you have any thoughts on adding something to the honor hall or making the offer be available for honor for a limited time in the portal?
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  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17
    I was really hoping this would get more traction. It really goes to show that The Bridge gets all the traffic.

    @RaraRacing , did you have any thoughts on adding something to the honor hall or making the offer be available for honor for a limited time in the portal?

    Sorry ... busy with work ... changed the title etc. as per your suggestion ... yes, it does sound nicer, as some of those 5*s aren't "decrepit" in the least (in my books). :)
    Writing the packs one now.

    So far ... a favourite suggestion I made is monthly achievements, this is quite common in other games (e.g. Arena in Plants vs. Zombies 2; special cardback in Hearthstone etc.).

    ps - yes, the double $10 offers (though I never take them) and the 490 Dil packs (though I hardly ever buy them due to almost always having the 4*s immortal) have been a great addition to the game, I'm sure they've done well in general.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1
    (2) - Era-specific Packs
    There have been many iterations/suggestions in this area. I'm not going to go into costs here, because that's something others, and TP, can figure out. I'm not a big spender at all, just the campaign really, so it is difficult to judge the exact value of these types of packs ... all I know is they should be cheaper than what is already available ... and they should be purchasable with in-game currency of some form, not real-world $$s.

    - Specific 5* beholds that contain (limited selection) LL 5*s ... think along the lines of the 45k Honor behold, but then you know what crew can come your way.

    - Specific "premium" packs that only contain 5*s from the LL era ... I personally would go so far to say that they only include the 5*s and there's no chance at pulling a 4* with the main slot.

    I like the idea of limited time pulls ... based on a theme ... kinda how they offer cheap packs during megas that are geared toward mega-event eligible crew (e.g. Cyberneticists) ... but then only including 5*s that meet those criteria ... e.g a Mirror pack with some/all of the 5* Mirror crew from 2016 and 2017 ... packs around specific shows (e.g. TNG crew).

    Personally, I'd prefer they be honor purchases ... if the cost is too high, no one will buy them because why put money/resources into crew you're likely to instantly freeze?
    Also, many people who put money into the game will already have handfuls of LL crew immortalised just because those crew have had the chance to come up in pulls/events for so much longer. So they are less likely to make a purchase.
    Hence, the game would really be gearing this to the average to low spender who wants to own a specific crew of old because they like them, or who just wants to have the last star for someone to freeze.

    I'm not going to go into the discussion of removing crew from the portal (that was a horrendous thread to be honest) ...
    The idea is more ... hey look; For July, TP is offering a 1 time begold (purchasable 3 times per player) with Lt. Commander La Forge, Mirror T'Pol and Alternate Future Bashir ... For only 15k Honor each begold? Wow, I need another star to immortalise that La Forge and wouldn't mind a 2nd on AF Bashir ... let's do it twice! ... 30k Honor, sweet, now lets hit that next Skirmish hard to recuperate that Honor ... and maybe I'll get enough Honor to get a 3rd star for Bashir before the offer ends at the end of the month ...
    I can't see how offering crew like that for that price (or something similar, cheap) will upset game balance etc. at all.
  • Prime Lorca [10FH]Prime Lorca [10FH] ✭✭✭✭✭
    RaraRacing wrote: »
    I was really hoping this would get more traction. It really goes to show that The Bridge gets all the traffic.

    @RaraRacing , did you have any thoughts on adding something to the honor hall or making the offer be available for honor for a limited time in the portal?

    Sorry ... busy with work ... changed the title etc. as per your suggestion ... yes, it does sound nicer, as some of those 5*s aren't "decrepit" in the least (in my books). :)
    Writing the packs one now.

    So far ... a favourite suggestion I made is monthly achievements, this is quite common in other games (e.g. Arena in Plants vs. Zombies 2; special cardback in Hearthstone etc.).

    ps - yes, the double $10 offers (though I never take them) and the 490 Dil packs (though I hardly ever buy them due to almost always having the 4*s immortal) have been a great addition to the game, I'm sure they've done well in general.

    Sorry if it felt like I was rushing you. Actually the opposite. I'm trying to space out the bumps to this thread to increase exposure.

    I would really like to see the monthly achievements too. They could line up with campaigns for an additional themed character. The Legacy Legendaries could also go in the portal in themed packs, as you say, in a rotation opposite to mega events. That would make them limited and it would make for a different experience in the "off" months.
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  • Just wanted to say how awesome this idea is! :smiley:
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  • KarnakKarnak ✭✭
    I think everyone can agree the "Legacy" cards need some love. Lots of great ideas here
  • Love the idea!
  • Great Ideas!
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry if it felt like I was rushing you. Actually the opposite. I'm trying to space out the bumps to this thread to increase exposure.

    I would really like to see the monthly achievements too. They could line up with campaigns for an additional themed character. The Legacy Legendaries could also go in the portal in themed packs, as you say, in a rotation opposite to mega events. That would make them limited and it would make for a different experience in the "off" months.

    No worries, still deep in work and will be so for the coming while ... but I've got it under control now. If any ideas pop into my head or I feel like elaborating more on others I'll add them here.

    I'll try to remain enthusiastic ... but work etc. has kinda put it in front of me that my interest in this game is on the wane ... for me there is so little possibility for progression in any aspect other than if I invest mountains of time (e.g. top 100 ranking in an event is one of the achievements I have left) or money (e.g. complete some of the vanity collections I'd like to go for). That my drive has just kinda ebbed away ... couple that with the intense cyclical nature that the game is in (i.e. constant event grind and new crew) at the moment ... I'm not sure how long I'll still be around.

    @ the others ... cheers for your support ... this is as much Lorca's thread as it is mine really.
  • eXo | SilverRoseeXo | SilverRose ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do like the idea of including older legendaries in the game in more ways, but I'd hesitate to paint all of the Legacy Legendaries with the same brush. Based on the qualifications in the OP (i.e. vintage 2016 or 2017 character), that would include some pretty awesome cards like FOB, Zodo, CowTroi, Falcon, 2 stats Culber, etc. I'm not saying that golds *shouldn't* be easier to get, but it could help explain why, from a balance perspective, we don't have FOB dropping like hotcakes on voyages yet.
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  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23
    For those interested ... Here's a list of 2016 crew ... have put them in a spoiler tag because it is long ... have highlighted those who I think are decent (in my humble opinion).

    Scientist Degra
    Enterprise-E Picard
    Alternate Future Bashir
    Interfaced Barclay
    Admiral Cartwight
    General Chang
    Age of Sail Crusher
    Pah-wraith Cult Dukat
    Changeling Founder
    Obsidian Order Garak
    Chancellor Gowron
    Beowulf Kim
    Mirror Intendant Kira
    The One, Lore
    Captain La Forge
    Lt. Commander La Forge
    Gul Madred
    23rd Century Martok
    Crell Moset
    RAF Miles O’Brien
    Jazz Musician Odo
    Delta Flyer Paris
    Captain Pike
    The Professor
    Judge Q
    Suliban Reed
    Admiral Riker
    Grand Nagus Rom
    Captain Scott
    Seven of Nine
    Shinzon
    Captain Sisko
    Mirror Spock
    Sulan
    Mirror T’Pol
    Enabran Tain
    Trelane
    North Star Tucker
    Commander Troi
    Dancing Uhura
    Orion Vina
    Rogue Kai Winn
    Mirror Regent Worf
    Will Scarlett
    Kai Opaka
    Grand Nagus Zek
    Aviator Yar
    Abraham Lincoln
    Wrathful Khan
    Arachnia Janeway
    Phoenix Cochrane
    Lt Commander Jadzia Dax
    1701 Sisko
    Gangster Spock
    Mademoiselle de Neuf
    Mirror Kirk
    Admiral Janeway
    Ushaan Archer
    Ushaan Shran
    Bashir, Julian Bashir
    Frank Hollander
    "Dark Ages" McCoy
    Dr. Soong
    Kal-if-fee Kirk
    Detective Data
    Disguised Kira
    Doctor Chaotica

    There are quite a few interesting niche crew:
    - Age of Sail Crusher - CMD/MED voyages, main cast, collections - though I have her immortalised, I never send her out on voyages anymore, she's been outclassed by many, but she will be helpful to early/mid-game rosters, like she was on mine when I cited her.

    - Main cast crew - plenty of main cast crew variants (Kirk, Spock, Odo, Seven, Data etc. etc.) in this list ... but most have average base stats ... still decent for the odd event.

    - Gauntlet crew - Seven of Nine, Moset, Gowron are names that spring out ... but have been surpassed by newer crew (e.g. The Red Angel is just straight up better than Seven of Nine).

    - Collection crew - plenty of crew that are part of collections, both vanity and stat-boosting. For me this is the most interesting aspect ... can I get additional stars on Mirror T'Pol? Great, she's one more for Vulcan and I don't think I'd ever cite her.

    If it is up to me I can find something positive to say about most on the list ... but that's in my nature, look at the +s first ... but realistically I don't think any but the highlighted ones would stay on my active crew ... I'm actually about to freeze the likes of AoS Crusher and probably NS Tucker even though I have around 50 open spots on my roster, just never use 'em.
    I already froze Scientist Degra.

    RAF O'Brien is a favourite of mine one of my first immortalised 5*s ... and till this day he makes it onto a ton of voyages ... he won't be frozen for a while.
  • [TGE] GTMET[TGE] GTMET ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great job RaraRacing! Many of these are nearly outclassed today by Purples. At a minimum, I think adding these to voyages would be a nice touch and a way to reduce pressure on crew lists. None are game breaking.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24
    I do like the idea of including older legendaries in the game in more ways, but I'd hesitate to paint all of the Legacy Legendaries with the same brush. Based on the qualifications in the OP (i.e. vintage 2016 or 2017 character), that would include some pretty awesome cards like FOB, Zodo, CowTroi, Falcon, 2 stats Culber, etc. I'm not saying that golds *shouldn't* be easier to get, but it could help explain why, from a balance perspective, we don't have FOB dropping like hotcakes on voyages yet.

    Added to Voyages
    There's an easy solution to that "problem" ... just add 2016's 5*s and keep the 2017 5*s on ice for another year or so, phase the introduction into voyages. And like I said, random drops after 8/10 hrs ... random as in how random 4*s now drop, I can go quite a while without a 4* dropping between dilemmas ... "dropping like hotcakes" is pushing it, to say the least.

    - First Officer Burnham (FOB) - yes, still one of the best cards in the game, period. I still don't own her, have never seen her in a behold, but would love to pick her up.
    I can see balance issues here if everybody was easily able to get her ... but see above regarding easy.

    One a side note ... the introduction of voyages to the game came at about the same time as the introduction of FOB (late September 2017 - I wonder if they realised they introduced a meta-breaking crew at the time?) ... you could use that date as a cut-off, i.e. all crew introduced prior to FOB are added to voyage loot tables.

    - Z'Odo - was an overall good card, but his use is getting more and more niche as the weeks go by ... event use and slipping shuttle use is what I see for him ... have him 1/5 and not a hair on my head would cite him up.
    The last time he was bonus crew in an event (Forever as One - Phantom Pain) he sat there unused due to other bonus crew just being better. The time before that (Forever as One - Where Nightmares Meet) he had marginal use. See the final point.

    - Durango Troi - same boat as Odo, but Troi is better ... many players will have her 2/5 (like me) and if they ever decided to re-run her event ...

    - Falcon O'Brien - excellent shuttler (see Troi) and collection value ... and events, but not much else. Have him immortalised and sees daily shuttle use.

    - Culber - uh ... if he's key to a roster (outside of Disco events) then that player might want to consider other options for citations, there are plenty of crew who make him redundant, as they have a much more flexible value ... Disco MED base then Pollard is a more flexible option, or his Mycelial version ... MED/SCI voyages, look no further than E. La Forge. There's mega-boy Q as "God" for general MED base or the 4/5 McCoy we all were able to get for free ... etc. etc.
    For a 2-skiller Culber is good, but he's still only a 2-skiller that shouldn't be the base for anyone's late-game crew. A flex-option at best.

    But that's the who point of my original post ... adding stars to niche crew to make them actually useful in those niche situations!

    As I write this, my 2/5 Will Scarlett is looking like a forlorn loser right beside my FE 3/4 Groom Worf ...
  • ~peregrine~~peregrine~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    +1. I support this proposal. I don’t have enough money to FF all my (N<5)/5*s, so anything that will save my potential future dilithium from crew slots would be a major QoL improvement in my book. 🖖
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  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with you there Prime Lorca ... Especially if you consider the options of obtaining Burnham:

    Options 2 to 4 are open to TP to decide if she makes a part of that possibility, e.g. is FO Burnham part of a mini-event or specialised (limited crew) pack pull?

    It is only #1 (voyages) where the ability to obtain her is more general, without exceptions made.
    But then ... you really have to consider:
    - Just how often are you making it to 10 hrs as a player? If 5* are only available after 10 hrs (one of the options put forward), is the player willing to risk a voyage loss (or token use) just for the minute possibility a 5* drops after 10 hrs.
    Just how often does a 4* drop after 8 hrs? I make 10 hr voyages all the time and it is not the most common of occurrences.

    - If the drop rate is 0.1% ... if a 5* drops it still has to be exactly her from a pool of around 150-200 crew! So, less than 1% of 0.1% ...

    Voyage Drops
    ... and that is kinda where a player needs to have a change in mindset to understand just how rare a (good) 5* drop is.

    I feel that it really should be seen as:
    - getting that lucky last star on a 4/5 that you've had sitting around for aeons;
    - picking up the first star for a crew that has, up till then, not shown up in beholds etc. and who you've really wanted to pick up for sentimental reasons. If that happens to be FO Burnham, I still need to cough up 200k Honor to immortalise her and get her to max potential;
    - generally adding a star to someone who is irrelevant to your crew at present;
    - an extra source of 550 Honor because you have the 5* immortalised or they are dead weight to the way you play the game.

    Instead of as a farming opportunity for picking up all the best older crew.

    If you have the Dil to spend freely on long voyages to "farm" 5* crew, why not just spend it on (discount - 490 Dil) packs and kinda know who you're getting? If you are getting to 10 hrs your crew is probably pretty decent already ... so what are you doing farming for older (LL) 5*s anyway, who in general won't add much to a strong line-up, again, wouldn't packs be a better option to improve crew?
  • Prime Lorca [10FH]Prime Lorca [10FH] ✭✭✭✭✭
    Part of this idea does require painting with a somewhat broad brush. That's how you get a pool of legenaries in the first place. Choosing the pool was discussed in my old thread. Or maybe its predecessor. Using the Big Book of Behold Advice was discussed. It seemed a good enough idea to do tiers 9 and 10. Maybe include tier 8. But the Big Book is a subjective resource. First, what if the creators started throwing good legenaries in tier 9 just so they could be more widely available? Second, what if a well established player created a new resource using her own criteria and it doesn't even have tiers 9 and 10? Or a heretofore less vocal Traveling Man created his own resource that adhered pretty strictly to numbers? Or what if the author(s) of the Big Book took a break? Things could get messy. Deciding who goes in the pool becomes a fight of sorts.

    Using the time of release is subjective. It also plays heavily into the existing mechanics of relying on RNG to obtain good crew. Not every drop is a winner. Sometimes, you have to get lucky. It may seem that there is a better way to evaluate who would go into the pool, but I think it's pretty critical that the method be as objective as possible. I'm not opposed to other possibilities. But it's pretty hard to account for event potential, shuttle use vs gauntlet use, or skirmish/arena use vs voyage use.

    I don't always play gauntlet. My arena goals are not very high. I like voyages, but they take a heavy back seat during events. Not every has those same priorities. There's no way to evaluate crew objectively by stats when there's so many ways to play the game. So... I lean toward release date. The only possible alternative I can see would be to track player data for engagement in each aspect of the game. Then you would need to compile card statistics. The statistics would be weighted according to the actual gameplay listed above. Cards in the bottom 10% or 20% would be placed in the pool. Since inclusion in the pool would be based on stats and not time of release, they would not necessarily be "legacy" but I would consider them to be "decrepit." It's a lot of hoops to jump through, but if devs were to do it, then I would be pretty happy. Or if there is some other objective measure, then I would gladly hear it.

    Or... They could just do the list that was already compiled and call them Legacy Legendaries. :)
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  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    Part of this idea does require painting with a somewhat broad brush. That's how you get a pool of legenaries in the first place. Choosing the pool was discussed in my old thread. Or maybe its predecessor. Using the Big Book of Behold Advice was discussed. It seemed a good enough idea to do tiers 9 and 10. Maybe include tier 8. But the Big Book is a subjective resource. First, what if the creators started throwing good legenaries in tier 9 just so they could be more widely available? Second, what if a well established player created a new resource using her own criteria and it doesn't even have tiers 9 and 10? Or a heretofore less vocal Traveling Man created his own resource that adhered pretty strictly to numbers? Or what if the author(s) of the Big Book took a break? Things could get messy. Deciding who goes in the pool becomes a fight of sorts.

    Using the time of release is subjective. It also plays heavily into the existing mechanics of relying on RNG to obtain good crew. Not every drop is a winner. Sometimes, you have to get lucky. It may seem that there is a better way to evaluate who would go into the pool, but I think it's pretty critical that the method be as objective as possible. I'm not opposed to other possibilities. But it's pretty hard to account for event potential, shuttle use vs gauntlet use, or skirmish/arena use vs voyage use.

    I don't always play gauntlet. My arena goals are not very high. I like voyages, but they take a heavy back seat during events. Not every has those same priorities. There's no way to evaluate crew objectively by stats when there's so many ways to play the game. So... I lean toward release date. The only possible alternative I can see would be to track player data for engagement in each aspect of the game. Then you would need to compile card statistics. The statistics would be weighted according to the actual gameplay listed above. Cards in the bottom 10% or 20% would be placed in the pool. Since inclusion in the pool would be based on stats and not time of release, they would not necessarily be "legacy" but I would consider them to be "decrepit." It's a lot of hoops to jump through, but if devs were to do it, then I would be pretty happy. Or if there is some other objective measure, then I would gladly hear it.

    Or... They could just do the list that was already compiled and call them Legacy Legendaries. :)

    I've not really given my preference to the 4 options put forward (so far) but this point is mainly why I have a preference for options 2, 3 and 4 (have added numbers to the OP).

    Why?
    Well, it gives TP more optionality, with using release date as a base metric.

    For example ... in (2) I gave the example of Mirror crew packs ... what is the harm in adding the likes of Mirror Ellen Landry to that selection, even though she was released in 2019?
    Imagine a cheap behold between Mirror Landry, Mirror Bashir and Mirror T'Pol ... there must be some numbers that indicate Mirror Landry's use, and I can't imagine it to be high, because by the numbers she compares poorly to an older card in Mirror Reed! ... not just in one category, but both bases and both proficiency rolls are worse than Reed's ... both Reed and Landry probably only see use in relevant events.

    So ... rather than using an external source ... it can be up to TP to decide what the flavour is of the packs, mini-events or crew added to event rewards in a way that they feel most comfortable. If they want to be really generous they can add is quality crew like Mirror Stamets to go alongside the three mentioned ... but I'd already be happy to just have the optionality of being able to get the other three crew fairly easily.

    You know, I think that for many players the introduction of any of the 4 options would make the 5* quality reduction in the campaigns easier to stomach.
    Imagine if TP said ... okay, players, here's a 1 time only begold for 15k Honor between Lenara Kahn, Doctor Chaotica and Tourist Tucker ... in a roundabout way you are giving players a one-time chance to buy a 5* citation at a greatly reduced price.
    Didn't buy the campaigns? Here's a cheap way to pick up a 5* you might not own, or add a star to someone you might never consider citing.

    In the grand scheme of things, these are such small, positive gestures that give back more than what they ask for from the playing community. Ah well ... I gave up hope aeons ago that DB/TP actually cared about their players.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have to say ... the 10.000k Honor for a random 5* is in the right direction ...

    Now if that randomness was just hemmed in a bit to something like 20-25 crew ... e.g. 5* TOS crew from 2016 and 2017 ... I'd buy that on a regular basis for sure.
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