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  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Undercover agents (not costumed). North Star archer, North Star tucker, laborer Spock, gangster Spock, colonel Karr, trader odo, disguised tuvok

    North Star tucker and archer missing federation

    Princess Jadzia and blood oath Jadzia missing exobiologist

    Gangster Spock missing exobiologist

    All Burnham missing Vulcan (if katra McCoy is Vulcan and Sisko is bajoran she should be Vulcan)


    North Star Tucker and Archer weren't members of the Federation, as it did not yet exist.

    The Exobiologists were already on the list.

    I added all Burnhams, though I would personally argue that only Graduation and Prospect Michael Burnham should have that trait, and I can see it applying to Desert, First Officer, and Prisoner. Once she's aboard Discovery, though, she's breaking free of that Vulcan conditioning enough that it isn't as active a part of who she is.
  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm of the mind that the following Burnham personae should have the Vulcan trait:

    Graduation
    Prospect
    Desert
    First Officer
    Prisoner

    Once she's been added to the Discovery crew, though, she begins actively breaking away from her Vulcan upbringing. Yes, it's still there inside her, but she's making the conscious choice to compartmentalize and, in some instances, reject it.
  • Shy KhanShy Khan ✭✭✭✭✭
    I added all Burnhams, though I would personally argue that only Graduation and Prospect Michael Burnham should have that trait, and I can see it applying to Desert, First Officer, and Prisoner. Once she's aboard Discovery, though, she's breaking free of that Vulcan conditioning enough that it isn't as active a part of who she is.

    She still carries part of Sarek's katra which she acquired as a child. And she also likely maintains her Vulcan citizenship.
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  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there a reason why you ignored my post? Just wondering...

    I was a bit distracted when I first saw it and meant to circle back to it and just forgot. I added Berlinghoff Rasmussen (Thief), B'Etor, Lursa, and The Duras Sisters (Brutal, Villain), and most of the Sevens (Astrophysics, Quantum Mechanics).

    I left out Drone Seven of Nine because her knowledge of those things wasn't necessarily her own. Contrarily, as Seven on Voyager, she worked in the astrometrics lab and once cited quantum mechanics as an interest of hers.

    Also, I'm reluctant to address the following traits as they're simply too broad and nebulously applied to really understand why DB has given them (or not) to any particular crew:

    Crafty
    Explorer
    Resourceful

    For instance, so far as I'm concerned, anyone who's a Jury Rigger is also by definition Resourceful, and yet I don't think there are any crew members who have both of those traits.

    Out of 30 Jury Riggers, five of them also have the Resourceful trait, by my count. Mirror ‘Smiley’ O’Brien, Laborer Spock, Rianna Mayweather, Niners Rom, and Lily Sloane.

    The truly embarrassing part about this is that I have four of those five examples. Still, that leaves 25 Jury Riggers who somehow aren't Resourceful.

    The only thing I can think of, and it’s not exactly solid, is that “Jury Rigger” is specifically related to engineering tasks while “Resourceful” is more of a general trait (think: Kirk making the rudimentary cannon to defeat the Gorn Captain). That being said, it makes sense that everyone with Jury Rigger should have Resourceful but that everyone with Resourceful would not qualify for Jury Rigger.
  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shy Khan wrote: »
    I added all Burnhams, though I would personally argue that only Graduation and Prospect Michael Burnham should have that trait, and I can see it applying to Desert, First Officer, and Prisoner. Once she's aboard Discovery, though, she's breaking free of that Vulcan conditioning enough that it isn't as active a part of who she is.

    She still carries part of Sarek's katra which she acquired as a child. And she also likely maintains her Vulcan citizenship.

    Worth noting is that we don't actually get a say in any of this, so it's not as though we're a committee deciding things, and I did go ahead and add all Burnham personae to the list. But just for the sake of conversation, I'll elaborate on where I would draw the line here.

    There are two things in play for Vulcan Burnham. One is that she was taken in by Sarek and raised in the Vulcan ways. The other is that they melded and she carries part of his katra. What I'm suggesting is that after being added to the Discovery crew, Burnham actively begins to break away from the Vulcan upbringing--effectively rejecting it in favor of her humanity.

    That leaves us with the katra of Sarek. I would suggest that this is a personal relationship dynamic between Burnham and Sarek rather than a tether between Burnham and Vulcan.
  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there a reason why you ignored my post? Just wondering...

    I was a bit distracted when I first saw it and meant to circle back to it and just forgot. I added Berlinghoff Rasmussen (Thief), B'Etor, Lursa, and The Duras Sisters (Brutal, Villain), and most of the Sevens (Astrophysics, Quantum Mechanics).

    I left out Drone Seven of Nine because her knowledge of those things wasn't necessarily her own. Contrarily, as Seven on Voyager, she worked in the astrometrics lab and once cited quantum mechanics as an interest of hers.

    Also, I'm reluctant to address the following traits as they're simply too broad and nebulously applied to really understand why DB has given them (or not) to any particular crew:

    Crafty
    Explorer
    Resourceful

    For instance, so far as I'm concerned, anyone who's a Jury Rigger is also by definition Resourceful, and yet I don't think there are any crew members who have both of those traits.

    Out of 30 Jury Riggers, five of them also have the Resourceful trait, by my count. Mirror ‘Smiley’ O’Brien, Laborer Spock, Rianna Mayweather, Niners Rom, and Lily Sloane.

    The truly embarrassing part about this is that I have four of those five examples. Still, that leaves 25 Jury Riggers who somehow aren't Resourceful.

    The only thing I can think of, and it’s not exactly solid, is that “Jury Rigger” is specifically related to engineering tasks while “Resourceful” is more of a general trait (think: Kirk making the rudimentary cannon to defeat the Gorn Captain). That being said, it makes sense that everyone with Jury Rigger should have Resourceful but that everyone with Resourceful would not qualify for Jury Rigger.

    Yeah, I totally get that Resourceful =/= Jury Rigger, but I don't get how Jury Rigger =/= Resourceful.
  • [TGE] GTMET[TGE] GTMET ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks again for keeping this list and good call on enterprise crew missing federation, forgot that they wouldn’t count till later.

    One more crew that I forgot:

    Zhian’tara Odo: Diplomat, Scoundrel and gambler. Kurzon Dax has been clearly established as all three of these.
  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    Frank Hollander needs Duelist as someone brought up in another thread I posted about traits.
    Sheriff Worf has Duelist, so Frank Hollander also needs it.
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  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks again for keeping this list and good call on enterprise crew missing federation, forgot that they wouldn’t count till later.

    One more crew that I forgot:

    Zhian’tara Odo: Diplomat, Scoundrel and gambler. Kurzon Dax has been clearly established as all three of these.

    Added Scoundrel and Gambler. Curzon was a Diplomat, but Curzon Odo didn't function in any such capacity.
    Frank Hollander needs Duelist as someone brought up in another thread I posted about traits.
    Sheriff Worf has Duelist, so Frank Hollander also needs it.

    Good catch! Also sussed out that Dahar Master Kang doesn't have the Duelist trait, so I added him.
  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looking over a character I want, Temporal Prisoner Chakotay, and I see he's missing the Starfleet trait. Every other version of Chakotay, even Warship Chakotay and GI Chakotay have the Starfleet trait.

    Temporal Prisoner Chakotay is from the episode Shattered and at no point in the episode does he stop being his Starfleet self.

    And still I proclaim that all versions of Chakotay, except perhaps GI and Warship, need the Spiritual trait. Chakotay's spirituality is a pivotal point of his character all throughout VOY and it is explored many times as a theme.
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  • Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.
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  • <TGE> Clifford<TGE> Clifford ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.

    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?
  • If Intendant Kira can have Klingon, cardassian and KCA traits....
  • Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.

    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?

    I think you are correct there, although didn’t Spock’s katra nearly drive McCoy insane during the short time he possessed it? So How is Burnham unaffected?
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  • [TGE] GTMET[TGE] GTMET ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.

    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?

    I think you are correct there, although didn’t Spock’s katra nearly drive McCoy insane during the short time he possessed it? So How is Burnham unaffected?

    Her whole life spent training and learning vulcan techniques and discipline?
  • Dralix wrote: »
    Except that Kirk and Data were actually dressed like Romulans.

    Riker isn’t even dressed as a Vulcan.

    The Mintakans were described as proto-Vulcan, so I'll cut DB slack on just giving them the Vulcan trait.

    Given that having 'Vulcan' as a trait has gameplay implications whereas 'Mintakan' does not, and probably never will, it makes sense for them to give Riker the Vulcan trait as well to help distinguish him functionally from other Rikers, even if he isn't a true Vulcan.
  • Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.

    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?

    I think you are correct there, although didn’t Spock’s katra nearly drive McCoy insane during the short time he possessed it? So How is Burnham unaffected?

    Her whole life spent training and learning vulcan techniques and discipline?

    That’s fair, but the impression it gave me was that McCoy was losing his mind simply because he was a human and not because he lacked mental discipline.
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  • [TFA] Celeres[TFA] Celeres ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    I’ve always thought this was a weird omission and would definitely be thrilled to see Burnham get the Vulcan trait, at least for the cards where it makes sense. What I have in mind are the Graduation and Prospect variants, specifically. Others might be a stretch, but those two should definitely have the trait.
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  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.

    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?

    I think you are correct there, although didn’t Spock’s katra nearly drive McCoy insane during the short time he possessed it? So How is Burnham unaffected?

    Her whole life spent training and learning vulcan techniques and discipline?

    That’s fair, but the impression it gave me was that McCoy was losing his mind simply because he was a human and not because he lacked mental discipline.

    Archer acted oddly and out of his normal character while carrying Surak’s katra but I don’t think he approached “losing his mind.” I chalk it up to a bigger difference in personality between Spock and McCoy than Surak and Archer.
  • IrialIrial ✭✭✭✭
    Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.

    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?

    I think you are correct there, although didn’t Spock’s katra nearly drive McCoy insane during the short time he possessed it? So How is Burnham unaffected?

    Correct! The condition Katra McCoy is in is different from what Burnham has experienced with Sarek, and the Vulcan Trait should not be added to all variants of her character.
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    WaldoMag wrote: »
    I remember his list being here in the new site. I also thought DB had already implemented his list. Though I do believe they have errors.

    I could have sworn it had been ported over, too, but I couldn't find such a thread; just numerous individual threads about a particular character or a few characters. @DB Koz did review the thread on the old forum and make a lot of revisions based on it, but that was quite some time ago. During one of the more recent client builds, there were something like 20 or 30 trait revisions made, but nothing significant since then.
    shapeshifter throughs me. I think they all have the changeling trait.
    What is going on here. Are these the same trait? Should there be only one.

    Maybe Yarnek is the question. He is listed as shapeshifter only.
    Maybe one trait still makes sense. Must decide which it should be changeling or shapeshifter.

    Think of it this way: A shapeshifter is any being who can change their physical form. Such beings include, but are not limited to, Martia (a Chameloid) and Silik (a Suliban who had been genetically altered to have the ability). A Changeling is a member of a specific race of beings who possess the ability to change their physical form. Members of this race include, but are not limited to, Odo, Laas, Changeling Founder, and Changeling Bashir.

    Side note: Odo was, for a time, made "solid" and did not have the ability to change his physical form. He was still a Changeling, however, as that's his race. Odo personae based on appearances from that period, such as Trader Odo, should have the Changeling trait, but not the Shapeshifter trait.


    Stranded Odo, likewise, was racially a changeling but at that time lacked the ability to shift his shape. (That episode would have been resolved quite easily if he'd still been a shapeshifter.)
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  • still she grew up with vulcan culture just like rom has the bajoran trait
  • For CardassiaFor Cardassia ✭✭✭✭✭
    still she grew up with vulcan culture just like rom has the bajoran trait

    Rom married a Bajoran woman in a Bajoran ceremony and was employed by the Engineering division of the Bajoran militia. That's why he has the trait. He grew up on Ferenginar.
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  • For CardassiaFor Cardassia ✭✭✭✭✭
    Irial wrote: »
    Only the Katra McCoy variant has the Vulcan trait, so I would say if there is a Katra Burnham variant then yes that specific variant should have the Vulcan trait. Otherwise unconcerned with her being Vulcan.

    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?

    I think you are correct there, although didn’t Spock’s katra nearly drive McCoy insane during the short time he possessed it? So How is Burnham unaffected?

    Correct! The condition Katra McCoy is in is different from what Burnham has experienced with Sarek, and the Vulcan Trait should not be added to all variants of her character.

    I agree with this. McCoy was carrying Spock's consciousness/essence/soul -- that's how they explained the "katra". Just because you've mind-melded with someone doesn't mean you carry his/her katra. That's a specific transference of someone's complete memories, etc.

    Spock's memories and consciousness was restored to him by transference from McCoy by the fal-tor-pan, the refusion. Spock had previously mind-melded with other characters on Star Trek, including Kirk (more than once) on TOS. When Sarek went looking for Spock's katra in TSFS it wasn't in Kirk, remember.

    Could Sarek's complete consciousness be restored by transference from Burnham? I don't think we are meant to believe that it could. Rather, because they mind-melded and his mental strength restored her life, they shared a uniquely deep mind-meld which left a "part" of his katra and has kept them telepathically connected. So while she is deeply connected to him personally and Vulcan through her upbringing, she is not actually possessing a Vulcan soul.

    That said, she was raised on Vulcan and was Vulcan-acting and a graduate of the Vulcan Science Academy. So I think one could argue that both Graduate Burnham and Prospect Burnham were culturally Vulcan.

    Yeah, I consider Michael and Sarek's katra connection to be similar to Trip and T'Pol's on ENT. Sarek's entire katra isn't inside Michael, just as T'Pol's isn't in Trip, but enough is there to allow for a connection/communication.

    And I agree that Grad and Prospect Burnham should have the Vulcan trait, because the Burnham in question there is fully invested into Vulcan culture. All other variants have regained more human characteristics.
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  • [TGE] GTMET[TGE] GTMET ✭✭✭✭✭
    And I agree that Grad and Prospect Burnham should have the Vulcan trait, because the Burnham in question there is fully invested into Vulcan culture. All other variants have regained more human characteristics.

    Not sure about this, I thought her actions in the pilot were very much due to her Vulcan belief system. Logic over values, good of the many outweighing the good of the one, in fact her actions are based on understanding how the Vulcans dealt with the Klingons. That would make Prisoner, tactical, first officer and desert all Vulcan as well.

    Theoretically, future versions would have LESS vulcan than human, but I don't think even that justifies losing the trait, its part of her heritage and upbringing.
  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    A portion of Sarek's katra has been with Michael Burnham since childhood.
    Shortly after she arrived on Vulcan, Burnham was targeted by Vulcan logic extremists who believed that Humans were a threat to their logical civilization and who launched an attack on the Learning Center. The bombing left Burnham physically dead for three minutes, forcing Sarek to initiate a mind meld with Burnham in order to revive her. As a result of this, a portion of Sarek's katra remained inside her mind, which later allowed him to communicate with her across interstellar distances and the two to share physical sensations such as pain.
    Technically, all Burnhams are Katra Burnhams. Whereas McCoy just had Spock’s katra for that episode, right?

    Since Katra McCoy qualifies as Vulcan under the criteria of has Katra, then to be consistent, all versions of Michael Burnham are also Vulcan.

    Furthermore, I think the essence of being Vulcan is cultural, not biological, and particularly in having undergone the rigorous training and mindfulness practices.
    In 2245, Burnham began attending the Vulcan Science Academy, where she studied quantum physics. She graduated four years later at the top of her class, and was a recipient of the Vulcan Scientific Legion of Honor.
    That said, she was raised on Vulcan and was Vulcan-acting and a graduate of the Vulcan Science Academy. So I think one could argue that both Graduate Burnham and Prospect Burnham were culturally Vulcan.
    Her whole life spent training and learning vulcan techniques and discipline?

    After all, what distinguishes a Romulan from a Vulcan? It's clearly not as much about biology as it is culture.

    QED: Michael Burnham is Vulcan by culture.

    Also, mayhaps this thread could be incorporated into the: Trait Audit Thread?
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  • For CardassiaFor Cardassia ✭✭✭✭✭
    After all, what distinguishes a Romulan from a Vulcan? It's clearly not as much about biology as it is culture.

    Those ridges on their foreheads and a lack of telepathy?

    But yeah, all versions of Burnham where she's embracing or using her Vulcan training/culture should be Vulcan. But there is a point where she basically rejects it and by the end of the season she's not really acting Vulcan at all. She seems completely human, so any variants of her from that period on I'd say she shouldn't have it since she's effectively rejected her Vulcan heritage/training.
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  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    After all, what distinguishes a Romulan from a Vulcan? It's clearly not as much about biology as it is culture.

    Those ridges on their foreheads and a lack of telepathy?

    But yeah, all versions of Burnham where she's embracing or using her Vulcan training/culture should be Vulcan. But there is a point where she basically rejects it and by the end of the season she's not really acting Vulcan at all. She seems completely human, so any variants of her from that period on I'd say she shouldn't have it since she's effectively rejected her Vulcan heritage/training.

    I'll concede your point about forehead ridges, though I'll argue that it's a superficial difference in terms of biological speciation. In terms of telepathy, the Romulans seem to have chosen by culture to suppress that trait:

    From Memory Alpha | Romulan:
    There are also various, conflicting explanations for the Romulans' lack of telepathic ability:
    • In Duane's My Enemy, My Ally, Spock explains that the Romulans left Vulcan before the mental disciplines of Vulcan were fully developed, and genetic drift has caused them to lose any latent ability they might have;
    • This is contradicted in Duane's sequel The Romulan Way, which explains that a number of trained telepaths accompanied the Rihannsu ships leaving Vulcan, but eventually died as a result of having to use their psionic abilities to propel the ships from one star system to another; because it required a group of telepaths to train new adepts, the Rihannsu's telepaths died at a faster rate than they could be replaced; according to this novel, Vulcans in the 23rd century believe that the Romulans still possess the raw potential to produce telepaths, but will never do so without hands-on instruction from Vulcan adepts;
    • In the novel Sarek by A.C. Crispin, the Romulans kidnap a group of Vulcans, several decades before the Khitomer Conference, and interbreed with them, producing telepathically sensitive hybrids.
    • According to the Vulcan's Soul trilogy, the Romulans rejected the telepathy of the Vulcans and slaughtered or enslaved the telepaths among themselves during their exodus from Vulcan: these telepaths became the Remans. This explains why no Romulan displays telepathic skills in canon, while some Remans, such as Shinzon's Reman Viceroy, do.
    • In Nero, the titular character takes a drug that enables him to meditate, and to develop the skills to communicate telepathically, without mind melding.

    In terms of Burnham's character progression in the series, my interpretation was that she integrated, not rejected, her human and Vulcan cultures and training.
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  • still she grew up with vulcan culture just like rom has the bajoran trait

    Rom married a Bajoran woman in a Bajoran ceremony and was employed by the Engineering division of the Bajoran militia. That's why he has the trait. He grew up on Ferenginar.

    Which absolutely no sense. Riker marries Troi eventually. Are we going to give him the Betazoid trait? Lets give Keiko and Jennifer Sisko the Starfleet trait because of who they are married to. Also, Keiko was in he employ of the Bajoran government leading botany expeditions. When traits go beyond race to include marriage and occupation, then a whole lot of characters need trait updates.
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