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  • Darth SkippyDarth Skippy ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Different issue: the musician trait. Having a hard time understanding why all Datas are musicians, but no Rikers except Jazz Musician Riker. Either it's only the version of a character where they show musical ability, or it's every version of them from the universe/timeline where they show the ability. Either way, though, not sure why Mirror Vic Fontaine is a musician. This trait is messed up.

    Doesn't Vic sing? Isn't that considered musical?

    Mirror Vic didn't sing. He had a brief cameo appearance with guns blazing, and that was it. Mirror Vic was also a real person, unlike regular Vic who was a holo-program.

    His guns do the singing.


    Dez and Troy


    2z2q745x3t6d.png

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  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    On the old forum, @GilbertSmith had a thread for List of missing crew traits. I could have sworn we'd started something like that here on the new forum, but I couldn't find a consolidated thread. I'll try to update this first post to include whatever is pointed out by anyone else.

    MISSING

    Ambassador
    Ambassador Fox
    Ambassador Soval
    Ambassador Spock
    Ambassador Troi
    Sarek
    Suus Mahna Sarek

    Android
    Automated Unit 3947

    Astrophysicist
    Bell Riots Jadzia Dax
    Seven in Blue
    Seven of Nine
    Temporal Agent Seven
    Tsunkatse Seven

    Athlete
    Anbo-Jyutsu Riker

    Brutal
    B'Etor Duras
    First Goran'Agar
    Lursa Duras
    The Duras Sisters
    Third Remata'Klan
    Thot Gor

    Caregiver
    Ambassador K'Ehleyr

    Communicator
    Chancellor Gorkon

    Courier
    Resistance Neelix

    Criminal
    Arik Soong
    Ardra
    Harcourt Fenton Mudd
    Sybok
    The Professor
    Time Loop Mudd

    Cultural Figure
    Changeling Founder

    Desperate
    Sulan

    Duelist
    Dahar Master Kang
    Frank Hollander

    Exobiology
    Bell Riots Jadzia Dax
    Blood Oath Jadzia Dax
    Gangster Spock
    Princess Jadzia

    Gambler
    Bell Riots Jadzia Dax
    Zhian'tara Odo

    Human
    Dr. Noah Hippocrates

    Inspiring
    Chancellor Gorkon

    Investigator
    Stranded Odo
    Trader Odo
    Umpire Odo
    Zhian'tara Odo

    Maverick
    Captain Thadiun Okona
    Pel
    Profitable Ishka

    Musician
    Admiral Riker
    Age of Sail Riker
    Angel I Riker
    Anbo-Jyutsu Riker
    Botanist Keiko
    Commander Riker
    First Officer Riker
    Lt Thomas Riker
    Mintakan Riker
    Pah-wraith Keiko
    Will Riker

    Physician
    Command Hologram
    The President of Earth

    Pilot
    Bell Riots Jadzia Dax
    Cadet Wesley Crusher
    Captain Thadiun Okona

    President
    The President of Earth

    Prisoner
    Gladiator McCoy
    Harcourt Fenton Mudd
    Martia
    Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    Rura Penthe Kirk
    Rura Penthe Reed
    Victorian Pulaski

    Quantum Mechanics
    Seven in Blue
    Seven of Nine
    Temporal Agent Seven
    Tsunkatse Seven

    Resourceful
    Commander Keras

    Romulan
    Shinzon [held political office of Romulan Praetor, albeit briefly]

    Scoundrel
    Zhian'tara Odo

    Shapeshifter [An ability to shift shape; distinct from Changeling, which is a race/species]
    Changeling Bashir
    Changeling Founder
    Constable Odo
    Investigator Odo
    Jazz Musician Odo
    Laas
    Umpire Odo
    Zhian'tara Odo

    Smuggler
    Resistance Neelix

    Spiritual
    Boxer Chakotay
    Commander Chakotay
    Maquis Chakotay
    Temporal Prisoner Chakotay

    Starfleet
    Temporal Prisoner Chakotay

    Telekinetic
    Tieran Possessed Kes

    Thief
    Berlinghoff Rasmussen
    Morn

    Veteran
    Commander Keras
    Prisoner O'Brien
    Roga Danar

    Villain
    B'Etor Duras
    Borg Queen
    Lursa Duras
    The Duras Sisters

    Vulcan
    Desert Michael Burnham
    First Officer Michael Burnham
    Graduation Michael Burnham*
    Prisoner Michael Burnham
    Prospect Michael Burnham*
    Tactical Michael Burnham

    *These personae are the most clearly Vulcan-minded Burnhams.

    Spy vs. Undercover Operative
    It seems that Spy is more of a vocation within the espionage field and Undercover Operative refers to agents in the field operating under a false identity, whether for espionage, detective work, etc. These changes would make the most sense. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, neither are they necessarily the same thing.

    Add Spy

    Bashir, Julian Bashir
    Ensign Seska
    Garak, Elim Garak
    Rakal Troi
    Senator Vreenak

    Add Undercover Operative

    Colonel Karr
    Disguised Tuvok
    Laborer Spock
    North Star Archer
    North Star Tucker
    Trader Odo
    Xindi Prisoner Archer

    Spy & Undercover Operative Changes
    Agent Harris - Change Undercover Operative to Spy
    Anastasia Komananov - Change Undercover Operative to Spy
    Kazon Seska - Change Undercover Operative to Spy
    Luther Sloan - Change Undercover Operative to Spy
    Obsidian Order Garak - Change Undercover Operative to Spy
    Section 31 Reed - Change Undercover Operative to Spy
    Tailor Garak - Change Undercover Operative to Spy
    Temporal Agent Daniels - Change Undercover Operative to Spy

    Prisoners, Hostages, and Captives
    Explained in depth by @Lady Gaghgagh here. Short version: Either rename Prisoner to be Captive, or create Hostage to distinguish from Prisoners.

    Hostage, not Prisoner
    Mintakan Troi
    Temporal Prisoner Chakotay
    Victorian Pulaski

    Augments and Genetically Engineered
    Explained in depth by @Matt_Decker and @Dirk Gunderson here.

    Augment (Political Faction)
    Arik Soong
    Joachim
    Malik
    Marla McGivers
    Persis
    Starfleet Uniform Khan
    Wrathful Khan
    Young Khan

    Genetically Engineered/Enhanced (Physiological Condition)
    Alternate Future Bashir
    Bashir, Julian Bashir
    Bell Riots Bashir
    CMO Bashir
    Joachim
    Malik
    Persis
    Racquetball Bashir
    RAF Julian Bashir
    Roga Danar
    Silik
    Starfleet Uniform Khan
    Wrathful Khan
    Young Khan

    SHOULD BE REMOVED

    Ambassador K'Ehleyr - Brutal
    Commander T'Pol - High Command
    Dr. Gillian Taylor - Physician
    Duelist Torres - Athlete
    Grand Nagus Rom - Bajoran
    Kazon Seska - Bajoran, Undercover Operative
    Mirror Intendant Kira - Cardassian, Klingon
    Mirror Regent Worf - Cardassian
    Mirror Vic Fontaine - Musician
    Obsidian Order Garak - Romantic
    Xindi Prisoner Archer - Costumed

    FIXED!
    Bartender Guinan - Civilian
    Commander Keras - Tactician added, Villain removed
    Obsidian Order Garak - Interrogator
    Rakal Troi - Tal Shiar created and added
    Senator Vreenak - Tal Shiar created and added
    Zefram Cochrane - Pilot

    For musician, add all picard characters
    And add royalty on queen kira

    I would argue not all Picards should have Musician, just the Picards post-Inner Light (Season 5), since that's when he learned his flute and began improving his musical skills. Stargazer Picard (pre-show), Locutus of Borg (Season 4), Detective Dixon Hill (Season 1-2), Romulan Picard (Season 5 but before Inner Light), Robin Hood (Season 4), Smitten Jean-Luc Picard (Season 3) are all versions which were pre-Inner Light.

    I agree with this 100%.
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  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Different issue: the musician trait. Having a hard time understanding why all Datas are musicians, but no Rikers except Jazz Musician Riker. Either it's only the version of a character where they show musical ability, or it's every version of them from the universe/timeline where they show the ability. Either way, though, not sure why Mirror Vic Fontaine is a musician. This trait is messed up.

    Doesn't Vic sing? Isn't that considered musical?

    Mirror Vic didn't sing. He had a brief cameo appearance with guns blazing, and that was it. Mirror Vic was also a real person, unlike regular Vic who was a holo-program.

    His guns do the singing.

    Bn9f.gif

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  • Is it just me, or does young Kirk look alike like Tom Petty? Sorry, random thought off topic!

    cyart7ntj5ik.jpgplso4ddymo9o.jpg




    Hurry up before those things eat Guy!
  • Zann Calcore (ISA)Zann Calcore (ISA) ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Different issue: the musician trait. Having a hard time understanding why all Datas are musicians, but no Rikers except Jazz Musician Riker. Either it's only the version of a character where they show musical ability, or it's every version of them from the universe/timeline where they show the ability. Either way, though, not sure why Mirror Vic Fontaine is a musician. This trait is messed up.

    Doesn't Vic sing? Isn't that considered musical?

    Mirror Vic didn't sing. He had a brief cameo appearance with guns blazing, and that was it. Mirror Vic was also a real person, unlike regular Vic who was a holo-program.

    His guns do the singing.

    Bn9f.gif

    xfvjhxuiarjf.jpeg
    Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
  • Odo MarmarosaOdo Marmarosa ✭✭✭✭✭
    I suppose a case can be made for Undercover Operative for Breen Dukat?
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can we suggest trait changes for ships in this thread? Here's mine: I.S.S. Defiant should be a fighter, not a warship. It's the same design as the U.S.S. Defiant and the Defiant-class, both of which are fighters.
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  • I suppose a case can be made for Undercover Operative for Breen Dukat?

    I’d say either Undercover Operative or Costumed. Personally, I think they overuse Costumed a bit, plus I think UO goes a bit better with what was going on in that episode. After all, they used the Breen uniforms as disguises to sneak into the camp. That’s kinda the definition of Undercover Operative.
    Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
  • Definitely Undercover Operative. He's disguised and he's engaging in a rescue operation. What else could you call it?
    Hurry up before those things eat Guy!
  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    I feel like Breen Disguise Dukat should actually get the Breen trait too. I mean anytime other characters have gone undercover as another race (e.g. Romulan Data, Romulan Picard, Bajoran Dukat) they get the trait of the race they're impersonating. So...Breen Dukat should have Breen.
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Apologies if this is only intended for crew but the other day it occurred to me that the ISS Defiant should probably have fighter as a trait - all other Defiants have this trait.

    SMH, NVM - Just seen Matt has beaten me too it - guess you got the fighter trait too on voyages the other day as well.
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  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Apologies if this is only intended for crew but the other day it occurred to me that the ISS Defiant should probably have fighter as a trait - all other Defiants have this trait.

    SMH, NVM - Just seen Matt has beaten me too it - guess you got the fighter trait too on voyages the other day as well.

    Yep -- that's exactly what happened to me, and I went digging through the roster and thought, "Well, this makes no sense."
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  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    I feel like Breen Disguise Dukat should actually get the Breen trait too. I mean anytime other characters have gone undercover as another race (e.g. Romulan Data, Romulan Picard, Bajoran Dukat) they get the trait of the race they're impersonating. So...Breen Dukat should have Breen.

    Agree.
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  • Data1001 wrote: »
    I'm of the mind that the following Burnham personae should have the Vulcan trait:

    Graduation
    Prospect
    Desert
    First Officer
    Prisoner

    Once she's been added to the Discovery crew, though, she begins actively breaking away from her Vulcan upbringing. Yes, it's still there inside her, but she's making the conscious choice to compartmentalize and, in some instances, reject it.

    If they add Vulcan to all the Burnham's, I'll be annoyed. I've airlocked every version of her everytime.

    So why would her having the Vulcan trait suddenly make her good enough for you?

    Mr. Data, I was scrolling through my characters today, and lo and behold, I do have a Burnham! I have 4* Prospect Burnham. Whoopsie! That's what happens when you have 120 active characters. Hard to keep track of them all lol.
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  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Emperor Philippa Georgiou should have the Cultural Figure trait.
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  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Emperor Philippa Georgiou should have the Cultural Figure trait.

    I'm not sure about that. Being the ruler doesn't necessarily make one a cultural figure. I saw nothing in the episodes to indicate to me that Georgiou held any significance to anyone outside of the fact she was the emperor.

    This invites the question whether being emperor is sufficient to constitute being a cultural figure in itself, of course. I'm of the mind that the Cultural Figure trait is not automatically conferred on one by their position. To look to a contemporary analog, I don't know that anyone would really argue Teresa May is a Cultural Figure despite being the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. She's more just the office's current occupant.

    Maybe there's something in the episodes I've forgotten, and if so I'll gladly stand corrected. But I didn't come away feeling that she was necessarily much more to her subjects than the latest emperor to be obeyed and challenged, the same as her predecessors and successors.
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Emperor Philippa Georgiou should have the Cultural Figure trait.

    I'm not sure about that. Being the ruler doesn't necessarily make one a cultural figure. I saw nothing in the episodes to indicate to me that Georgiou held any significance to anyone outside of the fact she was the emperor.

    This invites the question whether being emperor is sufficient to constitute being a cultural figure in itself, of course. I'm of the mind that the Cultural Figure trait is not automatically conferred on one by their position. To look to a contemporary analog, I don't know that anyone would really argue Teresa May is a Cultural Figure despite being the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. She's more just the office's current occupant.

    Maybe there's something in the episodes I've forgotten, and if so I'll gladly stand corrected. But I didn't come away feeling that she was necessarily much more to her subjects than the latest emperor to be obeyed and challenged, the same as her predecessors and successors.

    Really? Her most Imperial Majesty, Mother of the Fatherland, Overlord of Vulcan, Dominus of Qo'noS, Regina Andor, Philippa Georgiou Augustus Iaponius Centarius? The woman personally responsible for the genocide of Qo'noS? The woman jointly responsible (with Captain Killy) for the subjugation of Betazed and the destruction of Mintaka III? The woman who inspires such fear in even the most senior Starfleet officers that they dare not speak her name?

    [As an aside, Emperor Georgiou occupies the office of Her Royal Majesty Queen Elizabeth II with governing powers far in excess of Theresa May, if you're comparing her to today's United Kingdom. Think back to the days of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I when the monarch was also the ruler. Every one of those monarchs was a cultural figure.]

    Some significantly lesser leaders in the game who get the cultural figure trait:
    • Chancellor Gowron
    • Grand Nagus Rom
    • Acting Nagus Brunt
    • Dominion Dukat (He was leader of Caradassia under the Dominion.)

    I could go on.
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  • Odo MarmarosaOdo Marmarosa ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tourist Jadzia seems to be missing the usual Jadzia traits of Astrophysicist, Exobiology and Pilot.

    Or maybe that's intentional? Tourist Quark lacks Bartender, so maybe Tourist characters are "on vacation" and can't access any "profession" related traits?

    I'm just glad Alt Future Jadzia has them.
  • Boxer Chakotay should have the communicator trait, given the episode in which he is featured his primary purpose it to communicate with the Chaotic Space Aliens.
  • Ahdar Ru'afo should have, arguably, the traits, Tactician, Geneticist, and either Theoretical Engineer or Astrophysicist, unless they’d like to create something new for his knowledge of particle physics and biochemistry.

    It’s also possible he could get Cultural Figure, since he was the supreme leader of the Son’A.
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  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ahdar Ru'afo should have, arguably, the traits, Tactician, Geneticist, and either Theoretical Engineer or Astrophysicist, unless they’d like to create something new for his knowledge of particle physics and biochemistry.

    It’s also possible he could get Cultural Figure, since he was the supreme leader of the Son’A.

    I agree with all of these, though I'd argue Theoretical Engineer over Astrophysicist.
    I also think Desperate is quite essential to his character.

    I get DB not wanting to overload him with traits since he's such a base powerhouse, but in all reality, he should have the traits listed in this and Zann's posts: Tactician, Geneticist, Desperate, Cultural Figure, and Theoretical Engineer.
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  • GhostStalkerGhostStalker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once again, Command Hologram should have Physician. If he's got MED, he's still the Doctor. Therefore Physician.
  • Ahdar Ru'afo should have, arguably, the traits, Tactician, Geneticist, and either Theoretical Engineer or Astrophysicist, unless they’d like to create something new for his knowledge of particle physics and biochemistry.

    It’s also possible he could get Cultural Figure, since he was the supreme leader of the Son’A.

    I agree with all of these, though I'd argue Theoretical Engineer over Astrophysicist.
    I also think Desperate is quite essential to his character.

    I get DB not wanting to overload him with traits since he's such a base powerhouse, but in all reality, he should have the traits listed in this and Zann's posts: Tactician, Geneticist, Desperate, Cultural Figure, and Theoretical Engineer.

    Thanks! Also, I further agree with you! I totally forgot about Desperate and you’re right about it being an essential part of his character.
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  • Sorry to make an update right after myself but it doesn’t refresh the thread unless I do so.

    I’m sure someone mentioned this already but Bell Riots Jadzia should have Exobiology, Astrophysicist, and Pilot. Also, they should trade out Costumed for Undercover Operative or Temporal Agent. She’s not wearing a costume after all, it’s the clothing of that time period. UO fits perfectly because she’s trying to remain undetected and blend in to that time, but I could argue that Temporal Agent would work as well since she’s a time traveler trying not to mess things up and get back to her own time. UO is best but I could see either.

    The same might be true for Bashir and Sisko(Gabriel Bell) but I haven’t looked at their traits recently so couldn’t tell you for sure.
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  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry to make an update right after myself but it doesn’t refresh the thread unless I do so.

    I’m sure someone mentioned this already but Bell Riots Jadzia should have Exobiology, Astrophysicist, and Pilot. Also, they should trade out Costumed for Undercover Operative or Temporal Agent. She’s not wearing a costume after all, it’s the clothing of that time period. UO fits perfectly because she’s trying to remain undetected and blend in to that time, but I could argue that Temporal Agent would work as well since she’s a time traveler trying not to mess things up and get back to her own time. UO is best but I could see either.

    The same might be true for Bashir and Sisko(Gabriel Bell) but I haven’t looked at their traits recently so couldn’t tell you for sure.

    I feel the nuance with Temporal Agent is someone who specifically meant to go back to that time.
    Like O'Brien and Kira from that episode would be Temporal Agents because they're trying to find and rescue Bashir, Jadzia, and Sisko, but those three wouldn't be TAs.

    A TA would also be someone trained to handle temporal affairs like Captain Braxton in VOY: Future's End because despite it being an accident that he landed in the 1960s and lived through to the 1990s, he was still trained in temporal affairs and approached Janeway specifically regarding temporal matters (which sent him back to 1960s in the first place).
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  • Ru'afo needs the desperate trait. It's pretty much on desperation he acted to remove the Ba'Ku from their settlements to collect metaphasic particles to reverse the Son'a genetic degeneration.
  • ElimElim ✭✭✭
    Diseased Founder and Stranded Odo shouldn't have the changing trait. They are locked into form in both instances.
    The Diseased Founder should have the desperate trait
  • The 5-star "Changeling Founder" should have the Cultural Figure, trait, surely? The Founders were revered "as living gods" by the Jem'Hadar and, to a slightly lesser extent, the Vorta. And then this particular Founder was chosen by the group to represent them all.

    Yes, the Dominion is a bit of an artificially-created culture, in some respects, but is it not a culture nonetheless?
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Elynduil wrote: »
    The 5-star "Changeling Founder" should have the Cultural Figure, trait, surely? The Founders were revered "as living gods" by the Jem'Hadar and, to a slightly lesser extent, the Vorta. And then this particular Founder was chosen by the group to represent them all.

    Yes, the Dominion is a bit of an artificially-created culture, in some respects, but is it not a culture nonetheless?

    Agree 100%. The cultural figure trait needs a bit of an overhaul. Changeling Founder and Emperor Georgiou should both have it. Admiral Ross should not. There are probably some others.
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