Could use some citation advice

LeshyLeshy ✭✭✭
So I have been sitting on my Honour, letting it stockpile up, and it has hit over 200k. As I now could take one lucky 1/5 all the way, it might be a good moment to spend some of it. The issue is... I do not think I have a really standout citation candidate, and I am unsure of who to spend it on.

Note that I generally only pay for the monthly card, so there is not a huge regular influx of 5* crew; it is mostly events, DB handouts, and occasional luck on pack pulls.

Who do I have so far:
5/5 – Ahdar Ru'afo, Bell Riots Bashir, Borg Queen, Changeling Founder, Etana Jol, Kortar, Mirror Jean-Luc Picard, Prisoner Katrina Cornwell, Surak

4/5 – Kol of House Kor, Minuet, Rogue Kai Winn, T'Kuvma, Thrax

3/5 – Niners Sisko, Pah-wraith Cult Dukat

2/5 – Mobile Doctor, Suus Mahna Sarek, Will Scarlett

1/5 – Age of Sail Crusher, Age of Sail Riker, Aviator Yar, Captain Lorian, Captain Pike, Crell Moset, Dancing Chekov, Dancing Uhura, Defensive Phlox, Dr. Soong, Durango Troi, EV Suit Archer, Garak, Elim Garak, Gladiator McCoy, Kahless the Unforgettable, Klingon Janeway, Krenim Guest Paris, Laborer Spock, Mariachi Q, Mirror Beverly Crusher, Mirror T'Pol, Obsidian Order Garak, Phoenix Cochrane, Prince Bashir, Rura Penthe Commandant, Seven in Silver, Tempted Data, Tuxedo Nog, Zhian'tara Odo

(Bolded the crew that I think would be most worth citing up.)

Overall, I have a pretty equal roster with not a lot of huge gaps in specific skills. The weakest parts seem to be DIP Base, and SCI overall. It would be cool to strengthen Voyage crew: what I really lack there is CMD/MED and ENG/MED crew. Skill pairs that are also a bit behind are ENG/SEC, CMD/SCI, and SEC/SCI.

I can see a few things I could do:

Cite up four 4/5 crew to 5/5
This has the advantage that it gives the biggest overall stat increase across the board, as the 5th stars give the most value. It would also immortalise a couple of crew, which means they could at some point be frozen to free up crew slots. Downside is that I do not really 'need' any of them, and none of them would really provide a big boost anywhere in particular.

Cite up Kahless the Unforgettable
He cannot get additional stars in any other way, and he is still super high on the Voyage rankings. That overall means he is probably the strongest candidate for citations. The big downside is obviously that CMD/DIP/SEC is the area that I am least lacking in – there may not be as big a boost to be had there as in other areas.

Cite up one of the other bolded crew
The other crew are also pretty strong overall, rank high in the Big Book of Behold, and in some cases also provide pretty good reinforcement in certain areas. It's again just a bit that none of them really seems to hit a particular sweet spot that clearly puts them out ahead.

Do nothing
I can also just sit on the Honour in case I do somehow luck into an amazing 5* crew who is really super-worth the citations. Not the most exciting choice and does not really help in any way right now.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts and input. Did I miss some super good option, or is there a clear strong candidate that I am unjustly ignoring?
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Comments

  • Data1001Data1001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's an awful lot to consider there, but allow me to make the choice even more difficult. ;)

    I'd suggest adding Mirror Bev to your list of 1/5's that are most worth getting FF. She makes it on most of my Voyages. Plus she has a pretty decent base DIP (which you said you needed) in addition to that killer combined MED.


    Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
    ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
  • [ISA] Big McLargeHuge[ISA] Big McLargeHuge ✭✭✭✭✭
    If CMD/MED is a trouble spot for you, I would at least give some thought to buying Captain Beverly. With the honor you have you can get her to 3/5 immediately. Apart from Reverend Phlox, she’s about the only game in town for CMD/MED.
  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    If CMD/MED is a trouble spot for you, I would at least give some thought to buying Captain Beverly. With the honor you have you can get her to 3/5 immediately. Apart from Reverend Phlox, she’s about the only game in town for CMD/MED.

    The options beyond those two really drop off. AoS Crusher, Warship EMA, and The Keeper have it but with tertiary COM. Prince Bashir is the opposite with tertiary MED. the cupboard gets impressively bare after that.

    The only other way to do it would be to do as I did on today’s MED/COM voyage and load doctors into both MED slots, both DIP slots, and one SCI slot while putting top commanders into all the others except an ENG slot (manned by The Caretaker). Yarnek and Kortar are the only two besides Banjoman without one of the featured skills as a primary, and between them and the rest I actually have a pretty respectable voyage going on:

    pyqrogwxiqn3.png
  • MRNelsonMRNelson ✭✭
    I am in a similar situation, but don't have nearly as many 5* crew as you have listed. Using citations on 5* crew is good, but it does get expensive at 50K per citation.

    I was thinking of an alternative - spend honor on some 4* citations instead - only 18k each. Your 200K honor gets you 11 purple citations for 4* crew. If you are like me, you have lots of 3/4* crew just waiting to be FF and frozen. Crew slots can be valuable, no matter how many slots you have, especially given the rate that DB adds new crew each week.
  • DavideBooksDavideBooks ✭✭✭✭✭
    MRNelson wrote: »
    I am in a similar situation, but don't have nearly as many 5* crew as you have listed. Using citations on 5* crew is good, but it does get expensive at 50K per citation.

    I was thinking of an alternative - spend honor on some 4* citations instead - only 18k each. Your 200K honor gets you 11 purple citations for 4* crew. If you are like me, you have lots of 3/4* crew just waiting to be FF and frozen. Crew slots can be valuable, no matter how many slots you have, especially given the rate that DB adds new crew each week.

    I thought that way once, and have cited 4 or 5 purple crew. However, with pulls and voyages, they come often enough that I have plenty. I only have 12 or 13 purple crew of which I don't have at least 1 copy, and most of those are not in the portal. In fact, I just counted and found 32 purple crew on my roster who don't have at least 3 stars. I only have 32 (not all the same as before) crew who are not at least level 90.

    The advice frequently given here that you should not cite purple crew is good advice. Cite if there is a clear benefit, but if you cite just to cite, you'll be tossing duplicates away later.
  • LeshyLeshy ✭✭✭
    edited May 26
    Data1001 wrote: »
    I'd suggest adding Mirror Bev to your list of 1/5's that are most worth getting FF. She makes it on most of my Voyages. Plus she has a pretty decent base DIP (which you said you needed) in addition to that killer combined MED.
    I actually did consider Mirror Bev, but left her off the list. Katrina Cornwell and Bashir already cover DIP/MED quite well, and between the 1/5 and some 4/4 MED crew, it's not really a huge shortage area for me at the moment. She's definitely good, though.
    If CMD/MED is a trouble spot for you, I would at least give some thought to buying Captain Beverly. With the honor you have you can get her to 3/5 immediately. Apart from Reverend Phlox, she’s about the only game in town for CMD/MED.
    That's something I had not really thought about. Bit of a downside to that route is that it would give me another unfinished 5-star crew for now, and it would really only considerably help when CMD/MED specifically comes up in Voyages...
    MRNelson wrote: »
    I was thinking of an alternative - spend honor on some 4* citations instead - only 18k each.
    There is some merit to this idea, but 4* crew actually do come in quite regularly and much more often than 5* crew. In addition, I already have a bunch of 4/4 crew that I still need to finish, and most of the remaining 3/4 crew are really just useful for freeing up crew slots or working towards some collections.

    I would indeed rather improve my 5* roster (as said, I do not spend a lot of money on the game, so the rate of obtaining them is pretty low to begin with) with the honour; especially as you can now get a purple citation a month for free with the campaigns.

    Thanks for the answers so far, though, everyone!
  • Picard loves RedsPicard loves Reds ✭✭✭✭
    Z'Odo would be a good choice. He gets a lot of event usage. I have him at 1/5FE and his base DIP puts him near the top of my roster (13th) and the only non-FFFE in my top 20.

    I finished Kahless recently myself, mostly just to get him done. He makes most of my voyages now so I am happy with the spend.

    If you have $10 to spare, Capt. Spock should help your Cmd/Sci as the current campaign 5*.

  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'm a fan of taking the chance on a 5* Behold. You've got so few 5/5's that it's not particularly likely you'll get a Behold where everyone is already IMM. Either you get to add a star to someone for 5k less Honor than a Citation or you get to pick up someone new who may be on your wishlist. I've done this half a dozen times or so and have yet to be burned.
  • Odo MarmarosaOdo Marmarosa ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'm a fan of taking the chance on a 5* Behold. You've got so few 5/5's that it's not particularly likely you'll get a Behold where everyone is already IMM. Either you get to add a star to someone for 5k less Honor than a Citation or you get to pick up someone new who may be on your wishlist. I've done this half a dozen times or so and have yet to be burned.

    I am a fan of this as well, if I don't have a specific crew I want to cite up for a specific reason. It's a very economical way to add additional stars; I immortalized Mirror Spock this way. If you have a bunch of 1-4/5s and are not opposed to the possibility of a new 1/5 to deal with. There is the risk of all FF beholss, but in the OPs situation it's not likely and if the OP did get one many of the ones the OP has aren't terrible and may be worth a second copy.
  • Synthetic CommanderSynthetic Commander ✭✭✭✭✭
    Before considering which crew to select I'd like to make sure you're solid on your goal for where you want to focus on game development currently. I believe you mentioned that you'd like to improve your voyage strength, but on the other hand Odo is on your list of considerations (great DIP base event crew, not so much benefit for voyages).

    If you want to have a strong event crew with a side benefit of respectable (but not game breaking) dip base, Odo is the way to go. He would likely be a good benefit maybe... 6 weekends a year let's say? Respectable, but are you currently struggling to compete in some events or are you typically able to rank in any event you have time and desire for? If you don't have a problem with ranking currently, is this a big benefit?

    Now let's consider voyages. I know there is a tendency to try and shore up all voyages to be equally strong. Do you currently struggle to hit 8 hours on any voyage type consistently? My personal voyage goal was first to make ALL voyages reliable 8 hours during any event type, which benefits you for not only voyages themselves (SR crew) but also for chron hoarding to do well in galaxy, skirmish and hybrid events (over 50% of events).

    If you're ok with leaving one or two voyage types struggling at 8 hours, you may even consider making your voyage strength more focused by targeting 10 hour voyages by investing in powerhouse common skill crew where Kahless would be a good option, and leave the weaker voyage skills for new crew drops you get later. with so many CMD DIP SEC crew in the game, your odds are better of hitting reliable 10 hour voyages with some combo of those skills than any other, and not investing in other skills yet. Kol/Thrax would also be helpful there.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    *s to 4*s
    I used to do it ... back when I was always in a crew crunch I'd cite the threshold 4*s that came along in Faction/Skirmish events (like T'Pol in this one) and just get them off my roster (I don't airlock new crew) ... it really helped a lot with crew management, and with the influx from voyages to add stars to 4*s in portal I've now got over 30 free crew spots.
    However, I stopped citing 4*s eons ago when I first saw I wasn't in a crew slot pinch anymore. In the end I probably cited 6-7 crew (can look it up, but too lazy). So, technically I could have added 2 5* citations instead, but I wouldn't have had the space to add new crew.
    --> Decent idea if you are f2p and would like to collect all crew that come your way.

    CMD/MED
    Heh ... an "issue area" but you've not highlighted your two options there :) ... personally I'm citing up Prince Bashir at the moment for various reasons ... one being CMD/MED combo ... while not super strong he still gets an overall high rating when I consider my overall crew selection (see other forum posts on how I determine that), for me personally he addresses some holes I have ... but that might not be the case for many other players.

    I agree that Captain Beverly is actually a good option, and probably overlooked in many cases ... you can also use her in the Gauntlet ... I wish I had the Honor to purchase her, cuz I would.
    She's also useful when CMD is paired with a skill other than MED by the way ... you do have to get MED over a certain score to do well even if it is a tertiary skill.

    Bold Crew
    There are some decent selections there. I like Yar, Paris, Phlox and Lorian for various different reasons. I'm not a fan of Z'Odo (like many are) ... I have him 1/5 and see the benefits, but outside of events to me he feels kinda plain ... I'd rather have the Paris 5/5 with a slightly lower DIP base but good for voyages etc. than the Odo.

    Strong DIP base crew are a dime a dozen and they come out on a constant basis ... I mean, you can get a decent one just by fusing 4*s (Evolved Janeway) ... In my opinion, what sets the good ones apart is the good skill combos.

    Yar and Lorian address your SEC/ENG issue you mentioned, so seem like shoe ins for citations.

    For SEC/SCI you can consider Klingon Janeway.

    Others
    I think both Crell Moset and Mobile Doc should be a consideration ... MED is a skill that on regular days one or two crew will do fine covering requirements, but during events or for MED voyages you can really come up short.
    This will also help you with the ENG & MED and CMD & MED voyages even though they don't have both skills (see Dirk above).

    I like Travis' suggestion to just wing it with a 45k behold ... might land some prime crew.

    --> Personally, I'd go the MED route with Moset/Mirror Bev., Phlox and Doc as prime choices ... all will boost your SCI too to some degree.
    After that, I'd look to Yar and Lorian ... two solid crew.
  • LeshyLeshy ✭✭✭
    While I can see the reasoning behind the suggestion to go for beholds, I can all too easily see that ending up with some unlucky RNG that gives me a few other mediocre 1/5s that only eat up crew slots. I would rather take the guarantee of improving the crew that I do have.
    Before considering which crew to select I'd like to make sure you're solid on your goal for where you want to focus on game development currently.

    That is some good advice, and I do think I would preferably ensure that Voyages get stronger. I very regularly hit 8 hours unless it is one of the more exotic skill combinations, and with some luck have hit 10 hours on a CMD/DIP combination.

    A quick chart of where my voyage scores are at (selecting the top 8 crew for that particular combination, calculating as 1 primary, 1 secondary, 0.25 tertiary):

    20190527-voyages.png

    Grabbing a Beverly would definitely be helpful for the one skill where I currently have no crew, but I would only be able to get her to 3/5 for now, and I do not know if she would hugely help the CMD/MED voyage combination when it comes up when she's essentially mostly by herself.

    I generally do not feel that I am really lacking in MED crew, although the chart does suggest that it's a few of the medium options where extra MED might come in helpful... but then Yar could solidly boost the SEC/ENG and also CMD/ENG options... while Kahless could really make the 10hr mark come very close on the DIP/CMD/SEC options... choices :sweat_smile:
  • Prime LorQa [10F]Prime LorQa [10F] ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did anyone say "don't spend honor this close to a pending mega event"?

    I would wait just a bit longer. If any that you are considering will be bonus crew for the whole mega, that would be the tie breaker for me.
  • Synthetic CommanderSynthetic Commander ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great post Automaton. Your explanation about babysitting voyages is an excellent point that's a constant consideration for me. I have sporadic time available during most weekdays, but it's unpredictable and babysitting voyages is often unreliable for me. Reliable dilemmas are definitely more important to me in my life than having all voyages hit 9 hours reliably.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leshy wrote: »
    A quick chart of where my voyage scores are at (selecting the top 8 crew for that particular combination, calculating as 1 primary, 1 secondary, 0.25 tertiary):

    I don't think your calculations are correct and I think they weight to strong general voyage crew and not good voyage crew (there is a subtle difference).

    1. Why select 8 crew? A very arbitrary number that will naturally be skewed to CMD/DIP/SEC skills because we get a lot of those crew in on a regular basis ... you chart shows that we get few ENG/MED crew offered, which is very true and kinda states the obvious ... either select 4 or 6 or 12 ...
    - 4 because you have 4 crew that can fit in the two main skills ... you are not taking tertiary skills into consideration and so this would include the 2-skill crew you have;
    - 6 because if you want to include tertiary skill 6 is the max number of crew you can use with the same 3 skills ... CMD/DIP/SEC crew can only fit in CMD, DIP or SEC seats ... though you have to make adjustments for 2-skill crew.
    - 12 because you can fit a max of 12 crew on your voyage ... but a bit silly because you don't have enough options to have 12 crew for each skill combo.

    2. You completely gloss over a crew's third skill ... so basically you are stating that 2-skill crew have equal value to 3-skill crew.
    e.g. I am running a SCI/ENG voyage at the moment and my two CMD seats are filled by Ru'afo and Assimilated La Forge. I'm over 10k for each of the two main skills and have an average of 4.9k for the other 4. Most of the crew on the voyage aren't SCI/ENG main skill crew ... I've even got Cornwell in a MED seat to boost MED, DIP and SEC (lowest of all scores on the voyage). I could have filled the seats in better, but I didn't have time this morning to go through too many options so this is what felt fine to me.
    This means that you under-rate crew with unique skill combos (in general and ones you own) and over-rate crew with common skill combos ...

    3. Taking 0.25 of the third skill makes no sense because:
    - That's not how voyages work ... your total means nothing if the proportions between the various skills are too skewed.
    - It does not take into account just what that third skill is contributing to. That is why, for voyages, Paris is better than Z'Odo.

    4. If I look at the above list in your first post;
    - I can't see you hitting 10 hrs on anything but CMD/DIP;
    - I don't see many of the new 5*s that can really improve your crew ... Mirror Stamets, SO Spock, DF Torres, Mulhall etc. ... in a more general sense ... I'd advise to pick events to go for those kinda of crew.
    - and from a later post ... in my opinion "very regularly 8 hrs" should really be "always hit 8hrs" before you start thinking about 10 hrs for voyages. I'm a believer of going step by step ... this is best achieved through citing all mega-event 5*s (Minuet, Kol, Thrax) for their mega and then picking specific crew to compliment that set ... citing up mega-event crew, even if they double your skills (see Thrax), helps you get 5*s during that mega (Mulhall, Conditioned La Forge, Gladiator Spock) that will in turn boost your overall crew strength.

    In a different thread I tried to indicate how I weight 3-skill (and some 2-skill) crew for voyages only ... I would suggest trying to broaden your view to include the third skill ... e.g. Yar would also be of benefit in CMD/SEC voyages ... to review your crew based on 3 skills ... and then to decided where citations might be of benefit to you.

    One last comment:
    - I agree with Automatom ... maybe do nothing until the new mega-event crew is announced so you know the skill combo there.
    - Look at where you still might be using 4*s on voyages and try to improve those areas ... I can't remember the last time I sent a 4* out of a voyage and I really don't have that many 5* crew at all
  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29
    My first thought was sit on 50k for potential use for next mega and use two citations to finish Thrax and Kol, that would almost secure you deep enough coverage in SEC and COM during events. It's the most frequently used skills too.

    But now as the discussion has evolved I'd probably agree on Kahless you bought him got good use in gauntlet sure, but you might as well get even better utilisation on him in his other strong points in the game namely voyages. It's one of the reasons I haven't bought him yet, I can't spare the citations on him yet as I have too many unique crew giving me a logistical headache at the moment. So maybe take him to 4/5 and see what the next mega event legendary is like, just in case.

    Whilst you may not be hurting in these skill areas (COM SEC DIP), they are the highest skills in demand across the board, there may have been times when you wished you had one of your best (or their equivalent) on a voyage rather than an event and as you say he is portal and probably campaign safe too, if you ever buy into that.

    Unless you are really hurting performance wise on MED SCI for voyages I don't really see a standout 1/5 for you.

    EDIT
    Leshy wrote: »

    Overall, I have a pretty equal roster with not a lot of huge gaps in specific skills. The weakest parts seem to be DIP Base, and SCI overall. It would be cool to strengthen Voyage crew: what I really lack there is CMD/MED and ENG/MED crew. Skill pairs that are also a bit behind are ENG/SEC, CMD/SCI, and SEC/SCI.

    Actually I think this is part of the problem you are completely fine for SEC COM DIP areas because you are overstocked with crew with decent voyage numbers in that area, but scratch beneath the surface of your roster and your rarer skills are being propped up by Ru'Afo and Jol, then by 2 skill crew or 3 skill lowish end voyage scorers. If either Ru'Afo or Jol get called away for event duty, i suspect your voyages would struggle significantly in any ENG, SCI, MED areas, or certainly underperform.

    A provisional look at your 1/5s
    Kahless ranked 18 for voyages
    Commandant 37 "
    Paris 43 " Some useful ENG Tertiary
    Kol 60 "
    Dancerman Chekov 73 "
    Thrax 77 "
    Age of Sail Riker 78 "
    Captain Lorian 79 " - First real "unique" Set
    Tuxedo Nog 83 "
    Aviator Yar 84 " - Second real "unique" Set
    Prince Bashir 109 " - useful MED Tertiary

    then we go further and further down the list where your rarer skills are.
    Defensive Phlox 142 "
    Mirror Bev 149 "
    AOS Crusher 196 "
    Mobile Doctor 204 "
    Phoenix Cochrane 209"

    If you want to improve ENG SEC Yar would be your best Choice if you want to improve CMD ENG then Lorian would be your best option.

    Then you will need to work on MED Crew if you want to improve your ENG MED you will also improve MED SCI at the same time in most cases.

    I think you need to decide on a skill set to improve first and foremost record your last couple of voyage performances if you need a bit more clarity on this. Whilst also keeping a close eye on new Legendaries that get released. Crew can get out moded very quickly.
    Activity Date 26-10-17 to present, Sqd. Ldr. Magnificent Treknicians - CURRENTLY RECRUITING! JOIN NOW.
    Immortals Legendaries: 24
    Coastal Trekkers [Recruiting] https://stt.wiki/wiki/Fleet_Coastal_Trekkers

    DB Health Warning, prone to "Bicker"..... A LOT!
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    From your list, I agree with a couple others that Z-Odo is the way to go. He's a version of two main cast members and, despite being more than a year old in the game, has one of the strongest base diplomacy stats in the game.
    Fleet: Starship Trista
    Captain Level: 87
    VIP Level: 12
    Unique Crew Immortalized: 453
    Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat
  • LeshyLeshy ✭✭✭
    edited May 30
    Thanks for the comments and advice everyone, including Big Book guy!

    I think Kahless will indeed be the most useful option in order to get closer to consistent high voyage lengths on CMD/DIP/SEC combinations. He should at least not be an option that will be highly regrettable.

    I am already a bit on the way towards the next citation, and will probably pick up Captain Spock and the 5* citation from this month's campaign. I can then save that citation until the next Mega event rolls around to decide whether its legendary is worth taking to 5/5 over Spock or someone else.
    RaraRacing wrote: »
    1. Why select 8 crew?
    It was indeed a bit of an arbitrary choice to just get an overview of where my voyage combinations are lacking. Using a number of 6 changes very little about the results: DIP/MED moves up a bit, SCI/MED down a bit, but the rest is pretty much the same.
    2. You completely gloss over a crew's third skill ... so basically you are stating that 2-skill crew have equal value to 3-skill crew.
    No, the third skill is valued at 0.25 of the primary and secondary skills; see also your point 3. By default, that means that 3-skill crew will outvalue 2-skill crew, unless the latter have significantly higher stats.
    3. Taking 0.25 of the third skill makes no sense because:
    Your arguments against counting the third skill at 0.25 of its value equally apply to counting them at any other value.

    The only way to address your point would be to assign different weightings to the third skill, based on what it is. Rarer skills, such as ENG could then count for more than DIP. It is not entirely impossible, but fairly complicated and somewhat time-consuming to do – especially for a quick overview of 'what skill combinations are better covered than others'. And even then, the figures could still be completely wrong for any individual voyage; if selecting my best crew for that CMD/DIP voyage leaves me with no SEC and a ton of ENG, then it's SEC that needs to be weighed more heavily for that voyage, despite being an overall more common skill.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3
    Leshy wrote: »
    The only way to address your point would be to assign different weightings to the third skill, based on what it is. Rarer skills, such as ENG could then count for more than DIP. It is not entirely impossible, but fairly complicated and somewhat time-consuming to do – especially for a quick overview of 'what skill combinations are better covered than others'. And even then, the figures could still be completely wrong for any individual voyage; if selecting my best crew for that CMD/DIP voyage leaves me with no SEC and a ton of ENG, then it's SEC that needs to be weighed more heavily for that voyage, despite being an overall more common skill.

    No, you can assign weightings to both 2 and 2-skill combos combined (it is very easy and took me less than an hour to sift through 80+ 5* crew) . That way the following in-game crew will be weighted differently (voyage totals without any bonuses from collections/Starbase):

    1. CMD/DIP/x - 3278 voyage total
    2. CMD/DIP/x - 3353 voyage total
    3. CMD/DIP/x - 3267 voyage total

    We can see that all three have the same 2 primary skills (CMD/DIP in that order) and the "x" skill for each crew is different. If I use my personal weighting system then the three get the following scores (higher = better):

    1. 439
    2. 200
    3. 70

    If I want to boost CMD/DIP voyages I'd probably think about putting citations into crew #1, because the third skill is less common in combination with the two primary skills. Crew #2 is also a decent option but (I can tell you from experience in own numbers) crew #3 is probably overkill when I consider my 5* crew (in total 84 2 and 3 skill crew).
    The score takes voyage totals and crew weighting into account.

    - Notice how the highest voyage totals do not automatically point to the best to cite.
    - Notice how the Voyage totals for #1 and #3 are very similar, but #1 is a significantly more interesting crew to cite. With your 1/1/0.25 method both crew you contribute the same weight to your "crew quality rating" (and hence I don't think it's that good);
    - A score of 439 is really quite high (#4 on my non-FF crew list - you can't add citations to FF crew, so I've not included them in the final rankings, but they do add to the weighted score modifier), so even if I wanted to improve my crew in general it would be a consideration to cite this specific CMD/DIP crew.

    - Exactly because SEC is a common skill in association with DIP or CMD you should have no problem getting to the minimum score for SEC on a CMD/CIP voyage ... remember the two crew that you put in the SEC seats NEED to have SEC as a skill ... so a Kol and Thrax would do wonders there to get SEC to over 3000 AND at the same time really boosting your CMD/DIP scores. You then don't need to worry about SEC in any of your other 10 seats.

    Conclusion
    Like I said before:
    - If you are ever using 4* crew on a voyage, cite 5*s that can replace those crew ... I'm pretty sure you're not using CMD/DIP/SEC 4*s on your voyages;
    - If you want to always make 8 hrs, then you're probably better off citing crew with more unique skills compared to your other crew so that you strengthen the width of your crew quality;
    - Focus on getting better 5*s in through events (I hope you got Resilient Tuvok, he'll help out a lot);
    - Cite Janeway (the mega event 5*) in week 1 the second you get her, don't think twice, just do it.

    You can use this advice to get you thinking differently about your crew and about the methods you use to compare them. Like I stated before, the way you do it you will always bias certain skill combos, so maybe have a think about what you are trying to find out from the crew you have and which crew would be good to pick up in a behold or from an event etc.

    ps - EDIT: the Ratings score is neutral, in that I can compare different 2 and 3-skill combinations of crew and their voyage totals and see which one would be most beneficial for me to cite.
    There are other factors not included in the score like event value and collection value etc. I wanted to be able to rate crew for Voyages and not really for events, ship battles, Gauntlet etc. etc.
  • Synthetic CommanderSynthetic Commander ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting points @RaraRacing . Thinking about a CMD/SEC voyage, you might think about citing CMD/DIP/SEC crew with high stats endlessly, but you need to think about how the other slots support the voyage because you need crew to put there. Either crew that add a balance of other skills outside of CMD/DIP/SEC, or further support one of these skills while shoring up the other needed slots. It makes it more difficult to figure out optimal crew to maximize voyage time!
  • LeshyLeshy ✭✭✭
    RaraRacing wrote: »
    Interesting stuff
    From what I gather, you are essentially assigning weights to the third skill, but then not on how (un)common that skill is overall, but how (un)common it is in combination with the primary and secondary skill. Is that fair to say?

    You said that you had posted more about your system in a different thread – can you indicate where? I would be interested in reading a bit more about it.

    For the record, I have already gone with Kahless now because of the reasons outlined above, and have no regrets so far. The only area where I really still use 4*-crew in Voyages is in SCI combinations, and that is where I do not have any great SCI options to cite right now anyway.

    I do not get a lot of 5* crew from events, as I frequently do not have the time and/or resources to either make it to the 400k threshold or to hit the top 1500. There was a recent faction event where I happened to have the time and enough event crew to actually do both, but that is a fairly rare occasion.

    As for Janeway, it will likely be between her and Captain Spock who gets the 5th star for now. I will make that call once I see her stats; I do not think they have been released yet.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leshy wrote: »
    RaraRacing wrote: »
    Interesting stuff
    From what I gather, you are essentially assigning weights to the third skill, but then not on how (un)common that skill is overall, but how (un)common it is in combination with the primary and secondary skill. Is that fair to say?

    You said that you had posted more about your system in a different thread – can you indicate where? I would be interested in reading a bit more about it.

    For the record, I have already gone with Kahless now because of the reasons outlined above, and have no regrets so far. The only area where I really still use 4*-crew in Voyages is in SCI combinations, and that is where I do not have any great SCI options to cite right now anyway.

    I do not get a lot of 5* crew from events, as I frequently do not have the time and/or resources to either make it to the 400k threshold or to hit the top 1500. There was a recent faction event where I happened to have the time and enough event crew to actually do both, but that is a fairly rare occasion.

    As for Janeway, it will likely be between her and Captain Spock who gets the 5th star for now. I will make that call once I see her stats; I do not think they have been released yet.

    1. Yes, that was basically what I was saying in my first post with a preference of Paris over Odo (Automatom made the same point but probably better stated).
    KG Paris - DCE - 3357 - 288
    Z'Odo - DCS - 3262 - 93;
    But again for Voyages, as Odo has good event potential ...
    If you look at the table for 5* skill sets on pg 18/19 of the Big Book (all or 3-skill) ... you'll see that the table you post above looks remarkably similar in skill distribution ... so, again your table shows that you are strong in areas where DB has given us the most crew. However, the Big Book has not gone further in depth as of yet, so ...

    2. https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/11722/who-would-you-make-the-next-citation-project
    Initial forays, not really rounded off yet, improvements can be made bla bla bla .. .for example, Grand Nagus Rom is highly rated (category 2 in my system) with this method, but he looks kinda poor stat-wise ... the thing is, he has a fairly unique skill combo when you compare him to the other 83 5*s I have. I just picked him up as a 1/5.

    3. I think Kahless is a fine crew to add citations to ... wouldn't be my first choice but still a good choice ... he's not available in the portal so you'll never get better value out of him unless you do cite ... this is the reason I'm using my 4* citations on voyage-only crew (Fierce Guinan) because she'll never get better if I don't (once done with Guinan I'll move to non-portal 4*s that are part of collections).

    4. Janeway will help you get legendaries in the next 4 weeks ... some look to be pretty good (hope Jett Reno is a 5*) ... food for thought.
  • RaraRacingRaraRacing ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting points @RaraRacing . Thinking about a CMD/SEC voyage, you might think about citing CMD/DIP/SEC crew with high stats endlessly, but you need to think about how the other slots support the voyage because you need crew to put there. Either crew that add a balance of other skills outside of CMD/DIP/SEC, or further support one of these skills while shoring up the other needed slots. It makes it more difficult to figure out optimal crew to maximize voyage time!

    CMD/SEC was the first voyage I got to 10 hrs on without a refresh ... I used the standard immortal 5* mega event crew and a couple of ones I'd cited up (Away Team Saru, RAF O'Brien), topped off with a couple of 1/5s and a 4/5 Armus.

    Unless the new mega-event Janeway is CMD/SEC/MED or SEC/CMD/MED there's no combo with a third skill that is really interesting (for voyages), if I use my ratings, and worthy of a citation.
    I will cite Janeway no matter what, but I'd be a touch disappointed if she was CMD/SEC/x or SEC/CMD/x, where x is not MED.
  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4
    Another option which is something I have been exploring recently is looking at which legendaries have the highest tertiary of course this won't automatically guarentee 10hrs either to my horror I saw Shinzon appear on the list below.

    Med
    1 Caretaker 802
    2 Leonardo 785
    3 Stranded Quark 779
    4 Chef Riker 777
    5 DF Paris 775
    6 WC Jake Sisko 766
    7 Boothby Replicant 743
    8 Temp Prisoner Chakotay 737

    SCI
    1 Locutus 885
    2 Agent Janeway 822
    3 LT Crusher 822
    4 Interfaced Barclay 797
    5 Emotional Data 787
    6 Elizabeth Dehner 784
    7 Mirror Data 781
    8 Ahdar Ru'Afo 767

    ENG
    1 Professor Moriarty 914
    2 Borg Queen 821
    3 M. De Neuf 811
    4 AOS Riker 791
    5 Rain Robinson 758
    6 Captain Killy 757
    7 Detective Data 751
    8 Away Team Burnham 749

    SEC
    1 Bashir, Julian Bashir 1014
    2 RAF O'Brien 857
    3 1st Officer Burnham 852
    4 Captain Braxton 852
    5 Gangster Kirk 825
    6 Xindi Counsellor 818
    7 Assimilated Janeway 781
    8 Prisoner Cornwell 779

    CMD
    1 Mirror Kira 896
    2 Admiral Janeway 816
    3 Surak 814
    4 Kal-if-fee Kirk 811
    5 Niners Worf 798
    6 Prophet Sarah Sisko 796
    7 Mirror T'Pol 790
    8 Humbled Archer 785

    DIP
    1 Dark Ages McCoy 1056
    2 Shinzon 924
    3 Judge Q 817
    4 AOS Data 815
    5 Honey Bare Dax 797
    6 Durango Troi 791
    7 Reverend Phlox 780
    8 Admiral Riker 779

    I think it would fair to off set this by Voyage Rank and skills required to bolster, but you also have to take into consideration traits as well of course.



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  • Automaton_2000Automaton_2000 ✭✭✭✭
    It's not the size of your tertiary, it's how you use it. It's equally viable to stock, say, a CMD/SEC voyage with mostly CMD/SEC/DIP crew with small-ish tertiaries and then crew that match no featured skills (ENG/SCI/MED) to bolster the ancillary skills. It's a matter of how diverse your roster is, or rather where your strengths lie. And the average tertiary strength naturally creeps higher as the crews' voyage total does.

    I'm often reminded of this post - notice that two of the crew riding along match neither featured skill, but their big voyage total allows them to fill in the ancillaries while top heavy crew lift the featured skills. Note that the CMD/ENG crew have relatively small tertiaries - at the time of that post, Earhart, La Borg, Lorian, Ru'afo, and Miles were the #1, #2, #3, #4, and #6 for CMD+ENG 2-skill sum; relatively top heavy.

    Voyages are a function of stat power and skill set; indeed they affect each other proportionally. The more common a skill set is on your roster, the more powerful an addition to that set would need to be to A. replace an incumbent crew and B. replicate the same boost in efficacy that a crew with a rarer skill set would offer. Not all skill points are created equally - the last star may offer the most raw stats, but those stats won't go as far for one skill set in particular;
    Dingbat1 wrote: »
    CMD/DIP/SEC 67
    CMD/ENG/SEC 18
    CMD/DIP/SCI 16
    CMD/SEC/SCI16
    DIP/ENG/SCI 14
    CMD/ENG/SCI 11
    ENG/SEC/SCI 10
    DIP/ENG/SEC 8
    DIP/SEC/SCI 8
    DIP/SEC/MED 8
    ...

    Enter Borg Queen. The kick in her secret sauce is where her relatively large tertiary meets rare skill set. She was one of, I believe, two legendary crew with her skill set at the time of her release (Rom). Offering a rare tertiary in combination with its unusual size is what helps her pop. That's the kind of thing to look for when deciding if crew with two or more of the three common skills are worth acquiring/citing.

    It's okay to have/cite several strong CMD/DIP/SEC crew, even considering how way out of proportion their representation is, as long as your roster has the ENG/SCI/MED crew necessary to support them on voyages without leaving your ancillary skills tanked and your ship bleeding AM from hour 2. The caution surrounding them is mostly making sure you have the balance of skill sets necessary to off-set the amount of CMD/DIP/SEC crew that get thrown at us (Kol, Kortar, Thrax, Leland/Georgiou).

    The dance of matching skill set partners can be a lot of fun. It will add extra value to a card with a poor total like the new MED Archer or save you from burning resources on another cookie cutter event crew who despite shiny stats, will just be -1 crew slot for potentially years.
  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4
    Couldn't agree more but that post does also highlight that 9 of the 12 used had high tertiary skills (you could even include Guinan as a +1, as her SEC is high and just outside the top 8 list for Security).

    The blend is undoubtedly also important, as is having the majority of trait match ups, thus maximising the rampup in the early phases of the voyage.
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  • Automaton_2000Automaton_2000 ✭✭✭✭
    Couldn't agree more but that post does also highlight that 9 of the 12 used had high tertiary skills (you could even include Guinan as a +1, as her SEC is high and just outside the top 8 list for Security).

    The blend is undoubtedly also important, as is having the majority of trait match ups, thus maximising the rampup in the early phases of the voyage.

    High as a percentage or an integer? I think that's the result of higher voyage totals - all but Ru'afo were in the top 40 as of that post. E.G. Guinan's 'high' tertiary is 19.9% of her total. For someone with a lower total, but similar tertiary, Mobile Doc, it's 22.2% of his total. In essence, if you're after a higher tertiary for whatever reason, chasing voyage total will provide more of those. I'm still not convinced of the benefit of a high tertiary unless it's in a skill which is uncommon to the rest of their skill set - I think it's more of correlation vs causation.

    I find traits to be pretty overrated unless you have a very competitive roster. AM drain is 25-30 per minute so a matching trait adds less than one minute to a voyage. That's a static gain not dependent on your roster and really more of a consideration for runs with multiple extensions.
  • Zann CalcoreZann Calcore ✭✭✭✭
    Overall, I’d say your best choices are, given your needs, Mirror Crusher or Z’Odo. Z’Odo is still the number 3 Dip slot if I’m not mistaken so that’s definitely a good choice if you want straight up Dip. I have Mirror Bev immortalized and use her all the time, in day to day shuttles as well as voyages. Her Dip won’t be as high as Z’Odo but it’s still good with great Med and decent Sci to go with it all.
    Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    Couldn't agree more but that post does also highlight that 9 of the 12 used had high tertiary skills (you could even include Guinan as a +1, as her SEC is high and just outside the top 8 list for Security).

    The blend is undoubtedly also important, as is having the majority of trait match ups, thus maximising the rampup in the early phases of the voyage.

    I find traits to be pretty overrated unless you have a very competitive roster. AM drain is 25-30 per minute so a matching trait adds less than one minute to a voyage. That's a static gain not dependent on your roster and really more of a consideration for runs with multiple extensions.

    I’d disagree on their own 25 am is not going to do much but 12 lots of it plus the ships 150 makes it significant particularly if the crew totals for the non featured skills can get you through the majority of the first 6 hrs means you’d have far more spending AM when your hazards start to fail. The more hazards you can cycle through the more of the featured skills may show up that will succeed past the 6hrs. Just in my experience, and although rng has a big role to play too, but on average I find the difference on my 8-9 hrs can be as much as forty minutes. Between not being able to match traits well and ones that I can that certainly is significant if we are looking to get 10 hour voyages.
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