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passive ship stats and bonus abilities

with passive crew stats i can get the bounty to 11 evasion. when i activate a fully fused laborer spocks +10 evasion ability the ship evasion is still 20. shouldnt it be 21 ? i find this is the case when i change ships but keep the same crew; with passive stats i can boost a ships evasion by one point but spocks ability wont change the evasion score to reflect that +10 has been added.

Comments

  • Mr. HobbsMr. Hobbs ✭✭✭
    I'm not 100% sure what the question is here. So, let me start by saying there is a difference between hard stats: attack/accuracy/evasion as defined by the colors red/yellow/blue, and passive stats: stats that are on all the time, but there is no visual representation in battle.

    As far as I know, there is no way to tell, for a fact, how much passive stats help in battle. Meaning, I do not believe DB ever released that info. (As a rule, I tend to think of every 1000 in a passive stat, atk/acc/evn, as a +1 hard stat.)

    All that said, Laborer Spock only gives +10 evasion, when activated. And he will only boost your ship for the card's duration. Something to keep in mind, Spock's +10 gets added to the ship natural evasion (which is also on all the time). So, if Spock is activated on the bounty, your ships evasion, in terms of hard stats, is +20.

    As for passive stats that a lot harder to calculate. Passive stats matter, but no one knows to what extent. (Other than crit rating and crit bonus. Both those can be calculated.)

    Not sure is this will help you or not. Re-reading your question, it almost sounds like you're having a UI glitch. The bounty should only read as a +10 evasion, unless a card is activated, regardless of your passive stats.

    Good luck. [=
  • starfoxstarfox ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    thanks for the reply! ill try to elaborate on my question. the bounty starts with a 10 evasion. i use crew w high passive evasion that bring the ships evasion to 11. i can see that the evasion score raised by 1 point as soon as the arena match up starts, with no activated crew abilities. (later , if i remove the crew i will see the ships evasion score drop back down to 10 when another match up starts). when i activate a fully fused laborer spock whos ability is +10 evasion i expect to see the bountys evasion score jump to 21 becos its score was 11 plus 10 from spock. however the evasion score is 20 .
    is it a glitch that the game does not change a score to reflect its adjusted value if the score has been increased due to very high passive stats?
    i also wonder if an ability like spocks +10 evasion just adds a certain amount of evasion , ill just arbitrarily pick a number like 7,000 evasion, and that added value is not enough to push the score to 21. this would suggest that there is a threshold to reach the next score and i could imagine that since ship descriptions list a number like: evasion 17,100. thus, his +10 evasion might not actually be +10. its more like +7000 (or whatever number thats high enough to add 10 to most ships score) but in this case its not enough to be the equivalent of +10, only +9
  • Mr. HobbsMr. Hobbs ✭✭✭
    Very interesting. I had no idea that you could change a ship's natural hard stats. I tested myself and got an ISS defiant from it's natural +10 evasion to +12. Seriously, I had no idea this was possible.

    IMHO, this is an absolute failing of DB (and now of TP). They have almost no verified information on how their ship battles actually work.

    This does make me wonder if it is, in fact, a UI glitch. I.E. are the ship's natural hard stats even supposed to go up or is this a new glitch from an update or something.

    Unfortunately, this also means I can't help you. I 100% understand your question, but I have no experience in which to give an explanation or even advice. Until TP gets their #### together and actually releases said info, IDK if anyone is going to able able to answer this.
  • starfoxstarfox ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    i think its kind of buggy regarding evasion and how effective it is. i only play admiral division which is dominated by kreyton builds. almost everyone running copies of each other like killy, adra, killy again, garth or some slight variation. i try to put together different builds and wanted to go very high evasion. well i see only a slight difference in how easily im blown out of the universe against these simple kreyton builds. an opponent with an accuracy of 18 from an activated ardra can destroy my ship right at the 6 second mark when killy and garths initialize timers are up. i mean i dont even have time to quickly click my own abilities before im destroyed. my evasion score is 20 at the 4 second mark so its at 20 before my opponent activates killy/garth.
    this is why i started putting in high evasion crew. ive put crew in with evasion scores totalling 4,000ish!!!! and laborer spocks +10 evasion ability and im STILL almost immediately destroyed by kreyton builds right at 6 seconds. something aint right.
    ive concluded that evasion isnt important. one crew with a high accuracy ability will trump a ship with an evasion far higher, by the thousands, than the opponents accuracy score.

    edit: ive just tested on another ship. discovery starts at a 9 evasion. with passive evasion crew i boosted it to 10. i activate spock, +10, and it STILL just boosts the evasion score only by 9, bringing it to 19 instead of 20. so now i think theres something wrong with the way the game calculates or recognizes boosting a score with a crews activated ability. this is kind of upsetting becos i worked hard to level up certain crew and spent money tryin to get more copies of them or using a lot of honor for legendary citations and they dont work
  • Múspell[BAD]Múspell[BAD] ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    I asked DB about that 2 years(?) ago and got this answer: ( no quote just as I remember it )

    The step from evasionlevel 10 to 11 is smaller than the step from 20 to 21. The program adds first Laborer Spock( in your case ) to the ship evasion and then the passive crew stats. Your passive crew stats are enough to bring your total score up from 10 to 11 , but are not enough to bring it from 20 to 21.

    I dont know if it is right, but that was the explanation I got from CS.
  • starfoxstarfox ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    ah, thank you for the reply. that makes a lot of sense. as soon as i get more arena tickets im going to test this by adding even more passive evasion. ill post results for anyone else who might be curious
  • starfoxstarfox ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    ugh ok. i spent way too much dil buying arena tickets. its my fav part of the game and i wish the cost to buy tickets didnt get incrementally higher. here is what happened:
    i used 3 crew with very high passive evasion and a fully fused laborer spock (+10 evasion at 4 seconds). this added over 5,000 passive to the ship. i chose discovery becos it has a lower score of 9 which should be a little easier to raise. match starts and evasion went from 9 to 10. activate spock and the score only jumps to 19. why not 20? where did all the passive stats from crew go?
    switched to defiant which has a very high natural evasion. activate spock, still the same result. not seeing the score reflect +10 with high passive stat crew.
    idk if something is wrong with the way the game calculates or recognizes passive scores and activated abilities or im just not reaching the threshold to move from 19 to 20. im inclined to think muspell's response from cs is correct and im just not reaching the threshold to move to the next level.
    could also be a ui glitch. i can say that i do notice a far higher rate of surviving my opponents kreyton killy/killy/garth onslaught at 6 seconds when i have an activated spock and a single crew member with high passive evasion. i found no difference with 3 high evasion crew vs one.
    the difference with an evasive build was immediately noticeable. 10 tickets and no spock, no high passive crew and i went 2 wins out of 10. next 10 tix and spock with one very high passive crew and i finished 7 out of 10. got another 10 tix and used the same spock/one passive evasion crew and went 8 of 10. i only chose opponents with kreyton builds .

  • Mr. HobbsMr. Hobbs ✭✭✭
    Interesting stuff. I also did a tiny bit of testing, last night, after the reset (4-6 battles). The only thing I tried was pumping my passive stats in order to get the ship's natural hard stats up, from their default. I got both accuracy and, in another attempt, evasion two points higher. (I think I used the cube for accuracy and the ISS Defiant for evasion.) What I noticed was that, in both cases, as soon as I activated hard stats, with my crew, the ship's natural hard stats went back to their default.

    I have two theories based on my limited testing:
    #1, this is in fact a UI glitch. I noticed that before your pick your ship to battle, the UI says you and your opponent's ship both have their natural, default, hard stats. They only change after you get into battle.

    #2, the default stats are higher, but when you activate a crew member, their hard stats supersede and replace any hard stats you get from passive numbers.

    Again, those are just my educated guesses.
  • starfoxstarfox ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    I noticed was that, in both cases, as soon as I activated hard stats, with my crew, the ship's natural hard stats went back to their default.

    this is what i see as well. im unsure if its a case of the game ignoring passive stats when an ability is active or ui glitch or, as muspell suggested, the activated ability goes on the stack first and then adds passive stats which might explain why we cant seem to get past 20.
    i feel like the correct explanation is the answer muspell got from cs. i do notice a difference when a high passive crew and a high activated ability score boost are together on a ship so it does seem like they are stacking. for example, when i put someone with a passive stat of almost 3k together with laborer spock on the bounty i much more frequently survive the 6 second mark when my opponents killies trigger. however, when i take that high passive crew out and only rely on spocks ability i notice that im destroyed much quicker again. having that high passive crew makes a difference , at least from what i have been experiencing. you know, thinking about that i could imagine it being a ui glitch as well becos the addition of that crew + spock makes a noticeable difference even though the score doesnt reflect the boost
  • Mr. HobbsMr. Hobbs ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    For what it's worth, I had a friend help me out and we did one test ->
    The Borg Cube: Evasion Power 4650 (passive stat) and Evasion 6 (hard stat).
    Scientist Degra: Passive Evasion 1400 and Hard Evasion 2
    Rakal Troi: Passive Evasion 2825 and Hard Evasion 7
    Gangster Kirk: Passive Evasion 1405
    Arachnia Janeway: Passive Evasion 1150 and Hard Evasion 4

    At the start of the battle the Borg Cube has a hard evasion number of 9. When Degra is activated it goes up to 10, when Janeway is activated it goes up to 11, and when Troi is activated it goes up to 14. (The Cube blew up after that.)

    EDIT: We also found this link to an old forum post. You might find it helpful.
    http://forums.disruptorbeam.com/stt/viewthread/56934
  • starfoxstarfox ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020
    thanks ,your post and the link are very useful. so off hand , without doing much math, it does seem like muspell is correct.
    the cube has a natural evasion of 6. with your crew it went to 9. then when trois +7 is activated it only jumped to 14 instead of 16. if her +7 is added to the starting score of 9 (this score of 9 includes passive crew) then it should have gone to 16.
    if the +7 is added to the cubes natural score of 6 (becos we are ignoring passive crew stats in this scenario) then it levels to 13. however, i think the score ended up as 14 becos it applied the +7 to the natural score of 6 and then added passive crew points which were enough to boost the score by one, bringing the final score to 14.
    the link says the number of points required to get to the next levels increases exponentially so it makes sense that i cannot get to a score of 21 with passive crew stats even with a +10 ability.
  • Looks like you are on the right way with your proof of the exponentially increase. The crew gives you 3 additional levels at evasion of 6, 1 at 13 and nothing at 20.
    I think thats the explanation, you did a nice job here!
  • On the same note, if a crew like Killy has an instant damage ability (in this case 400%), does it deal 400% of the ship's baseline damage, or 400% of the current attack stats. For instance, would more instant damage be dealt if a +9 attack crew was used before Killy's ability because now the attack rating is higher than the ship's baseline attack. Or would it be the same?
  • Mr. HobbsMr. Hobbs ✭✭✭
    edited January 18
    The higher the base attack, the more damage that 400% does. So, taking killy as an example, at 1/5 she has a +6 attack. When combined with the Borg cube, that's +17 (while she is active). However, she does significantly more damage when she is 5/5. At 5/5, she get +10 attack. When added to the Borg cube that's +21. Now her 400% damage is quite a bit more powerful.

    For damage bursts like that, the higher the red number is, when the burst happens, the more damage it will do.
  • For what it's worth, I had a friend help me out and we did one test ->
    The Borg Cube: Evasion Power 4650 (passive stat) and Evasion 6 (hard stat).
    Scientist Degra: Passive Evasion 1400 and Hard Evasion 2
    Rakal Troi: Passive Evasion 2825 and Hard Evasion 7
    Gangster Kirk: Passive Evasion 1405
    Arachnia Janeway: Passive Evasion 1150 and Hard Evasion 4

    At the start of the battle the Borg Cube has a hard evasion number of 9. When Degra is activated it goes up to 10, when Janeway is activated it goes up to 11, and when Troi is activated it goes up to 14. (The Cube blew up after that.)

    EDIT: We also found this link to an old forum post. You might find it helpful.
    http://forums.disruptorbeam.com/stt/viewthread/56934

    This is interesting. You took the Borg Cube from 4,650, which is +6, and added 5,630 (more than doubling the passive score), which took it to a +9. That same 5,630, when applied with the Cube's base and Troi's bonus, takes the Cube from 13 to a 14. I thought passive stats worked differently, but this gives a little perspective to how they work exponentially. Time to look at that thread and check some numbers.
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  • Using the ship and crew abilities spreadsheet, I am able to find ranges to see how Attack relates to Attack Power. I'll refer to the point where the Power stat increases as "the line between".

    The line between:
    3 and 4 is between 2,600 and 2,700
    4 and 5 is between 3,375 and 3,435
    5 and 6 is between 4,400 and 4,650
    6 and 7 is between 5,700 and 5,800
    7 and 8 is between 7,525 and 7,580
    8 and 9 is between 9,500 and 9,800
    9 and 10 is between 12,725 and 12,750
    10 and 11 is between 15,475 and 15,925
    11 goes at least up to 19,200

    When I played with those numbers and looked at the increments by which the Power stat increased at each step, things just looked odd. I couldn't find a pattern that made sense to me. Maybe one of our community's better statisticians can make more sense of it. What I see is increases of 750, then 1,120, which makes sense, then 1,225, which is too close to 1,120 to be exponential. Then a big jump of 1,800, then a mildly bigger jump of 2,100, then another significant jump, just under 3,100, followed by a jump that actually gets smaller: 2,962. I don't know where it goes up to 12, but the jump has to be over 3,200 because 19,200 is still +11. As I said... it's going to take someone smarter than I am.
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  • Sry for the late response (I had to figure out that I could actually click on comments in my profile, and it would take me back here) because I really appreciate the advice. I guess it really does make a difference then about whether the damage rating of the ship has been increased before using an instant damage crew. But it seems like you're suggesting that you don't even have to increase the attack rating of the ship first. For instance, you said when Killy is at 5/5, her 400% is more potent because she increases the attack by +10, so that 400% statistic is now based off of +10 instead of only +6. However, suppose she was only at 1* though for +6 and 400% instant damage. Would using a fully fused straight damage crew like RP Reed to increase the attack rating by +9 and then using a 1* Killy mean that her 400% is based off of RP Reed's +9 instead of only +6? If so, I could probably artificially inflate a lot of my instant damage crew.
  • JiveDutchJiveDutch ✭✭✭
    edited January 27
    On top of that ... Killy Example ..
    Will the +10 be added, and then the 400% calculated off that ... or......
    Will the 400% be calculated of the current value, and then the +10 for following attacks ?

    I always win more arena matches when i stick in Locutus to boost attack before Garth & Killy, than adding another insta-dmg crew, so it seems to be the latter form.
  • Mr. HobbsMr. Hobbs ✭✭✭
    edited January 29
    Would using a fully fused straight damage crew like RP Reed to increase the attack rating by +9 and then using a 1* Killy mean that her 400% is based off of RP Reed's +9 instead of only +6? If so, I could probably artificially inflate a lot of my instant damage crew.

    Yes, this is exactly right. Killy, at 1/5, only does +6, so the game would use Reed's +9 instead. The game would only switch to Killy's +6 once the duration of the Reed card had ended. That said, you must activate Reed before Killy in order for Killy's 400% to benefit from it.

    A interesting example of "artificially inflating" an instant damage crew, would be Aviator Yar or Gloria. Each does +11 attack, at 6s, if they are on a ship that has position. For example, a 10/10 NX-01 enterprise has position at 4s and a natural attack of +11. Add the crew of 5/5 Gloria, 1/5 Killy, 1/5 Garth, and 1/5 RPC (all of which have 400% instant damage at 6s). Gloria's +11 attack (+22 when combined with the ship) would effectively boost all the instant damage card as if they were also +11 attack.
  • Mr. HobbsMr. Hobbs ✭✭✭
    edited January 29
    JiveDutch wrote: »
    On top of that ... Killy Example ..
    Will the +10 be added, and then the 400% calculated off that ... or......
    Will the 400% be calculated of the current value, and then the +10 for following attacks ?

    I always win more arena matches when i stick in Locutus to boost attack before Garth & Killy, than adding another insta-dmg crew, so it seems to be the latter form.

    I am 99.9% sure that Killy's +10 attack is calculated before her 400% instant damage is calculated. IMO, there are two reasons why Locutus is such a powerful card to have in a Krayton setup:

    1) While he is only online for 3s before Killy is activated (1s initialize, 3s before the Krayton does a time reduction on Killy) that 3s, at +9 attack, can do quite a bit of damage; especially since there are very few evasion cards that can defend against it.

    2) Likely, the majority of "extra" damage you are seeing is the Krayton's own instant damage (350%). Without Locutus (or a card like it) the Krayton's instant damage does not do a lot. With Locutus' +9, it becomes quite powerful.
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