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Trait Audit Thread

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  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    The new Virtuoso Doctor should still have physician too, as he was considering having his medical database removed but Torres convinced him not to.

    I second this. During his Virtuoso performance and the entire episode, he never once actually eradicated his Physician database, and he still acted in the capacity of a Physician even with his looming career takeoff.
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  • Why the Borg Queen, the personification of an entire race that are basically villains of the Star Trek TNG era don't have the 'villain' trait makes little sense to me.

    So, DB, when you guys will give her this missing trait?
  • JhamelJhamel ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since the "Spit and Bailing Wire" collection is very hard to complete, could there maybe be one or two additions to crew with the Jury Rigger trait? Some Geordi and Barclay variants don't seem to have it.
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  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since the "Spit and Bailing Wire" collection is very hard to complete, could there maybe be one or two additions to crew with the Jury Rigger trait? Some Geordi and Barclay variants don't seem to have it.

    I've been thinking this about Scotty. I actually don't think Geordi was much of a jury rigger, but Scotty was. It seems that DB gives most engineering crew either jury rigger or innovator, but not both. I think almost every version of Geordi is an innovator, but never a jury rigger. With Scotty, it seems to vary. For example, 2* Scotty is a jury rigger, as is the 5* Dress Uniform version from the same time period. But 3* Scotty (from ST I) is an innovator but not a jury rigger for some reason. 4* Scotty (his professor persona from ST IV) is neither, though I would argue that version should be both: Professor Scott in his disguised persona was an innovator with transparent aluminum, etc., and he also jury rigged a giant whale tank in the back of a Klingon Bird of Prey. But then, in his old age, Scotty apparently becomes a jury rigger again with his 5* Captain Scott (from after he was held in a transporter buffer until a TNG episode).
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  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's talk about another trait here: Prisoner. This seems relevant with the arrival of Xindi Prisoner Archer next week.

    Current crew with the Prisoner trait:
    • Mintakan Troi
    • Prisoner Katrina Cornwell
    • Prisoner Michael Burnham
    • Prisoner O'Brien

    Crew who specifically were prisoners at the dilithium mines on the penal asteroid of Rura Penthe all seem to lack the Prisoner trait, but surely ought to have it:
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed

    Other candidates for the Prisoner trait:
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay has the word "prisoner" in his name.
    • Victorian Pulaski was held prisoner by the holodeck character Professor Moriarty.

    Any others I've missed?

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  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's talk about another trait here: Prisoner. This seems relevant with the arrival of Xindi Prisoner Archer next week.

    Current crew with the Prisoner trait:
    • Mintakan Troi
    • Prisoner Katrina Cornwell
    • Prisoner Michael Burnham
    • Prisoner O'Brien

    Crew who specifically were prisoners at the dilithium mines on the penal asteroid of Rura Penthe all seem to lack the Prisoner trait, but surely ought to have it:
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed

    Other candidates for the Prisoner trait:
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay has the word "prisoner" in his name.
    • Victorian Pulaski was held prisoner by the holodeck character Professor Moriarty.

    Any others I've missed?

    That looks like a good list, no others immediately come to mind. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tempted Data, as he was at least restrained while the Queen started grafting real skin onto his arm and face, but that was for only a short time before she, uh, freed him.

    However, wasn’t Rura Penthe Reed just sneaking in to rescue Archer? I don’t recall the details of how that rescue went down (it’s been a few months since I watched that episode) but I don’t think Reed was a prisoner. In fact, I somewhat question the inclusion of the Criminal trait for RP Reed now that I think about it.
  • DimeDrlDimeDrl ✭✭✭
    DimeDrl wrote: »
    If Tieran-Possessed Kes has the MED stat, she should have the Nurse trait. If she's gonna have MED, she should have some type of MED trait to match it. Also, its still Kes.

    I don't know if I agree here. I get your point, but a trait doesn't preclude a skill or act as its requirement.
    For example Anij has MED, but no trait which specifically aligns with that skill. You can't argue Caregiver, because Keiko has that trait as well and she has no MED.

    As for Nurse and Kes specifically, Tieran has completely taken her over. None of his actions through her body which he performs are Nurse-based. A Nurse is a profession, MED is just a skill one can have without being a Nurse. So Tieran Kes is not a Nurse in any official capacity that Kes is when she's her normal self, because he doesn't do any nursing as her; however, he does retain complete knowledge of her MED skills just like he is able to use her telekinetic powers.

    Which actually that brings up a new point...
    Tieran Kes needs the Telekinetic trait.

    The only reason Kes has that MED knowledge is because Kes is a nurse. He's using her Nursing Knowledge.

    I agree with the telekinetic trait.
  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    DimeDrl wrote: »
    DimeDrl wrote: »
    If Tieran-Possessed Kes has the MED stat, she should have the Nurse trait. If she's gonna have MED, she should have some type of MED trait to match it. Also, its still Kes.

    I don't know if I agree here. I get your point, but a trait doesn't preclude a skill or act as its requirement.
    For example Anij has MED, but no trait which specifically aligns with that skill. You can't argue Caregiver, because Keiko has that trait as well and she has no MED.

    As for Nurse and Kes specifically, Tieran has completely taken her over. None of his actions through her body which he performs are Nurse-based. A Nurse is a profession, MED is just a skill one can have without being a Nurse. So Tieran Kes is not a Nurse in any official capacity that Kes is when she's her normal self, because he doesn't do any nursing as her; however, he does retain complete knowledge of her MED skills just like he is able to use her telekinetic powers.

    Which actually that brings up a new point...
    Tieran Kes needs the Telekinetic trait.

    The only reason Kes has that MED knowledge is because Kes is a nurse. He's using her Nursing Knowledge.

    I agree with the telekinetic trait.

    It's definitely a hard call to make. Because with Pah-Wraith Keiko coming out, will she still be a Botanist or Geologist? I think it was during a geological survey that she got possessed, but I'll have to recheck. The thing is up until this point, I don't think we've had any possessed characters, so it's hard to say exactly if they should keep their profession-based traits or not if they're not engaging in tasks related to their host's profession at any time.
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  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    So since it seems Keiko's second version is evident, I decided to look at her Botanist version because I had a sneaking suspicion of something.

    In TNG, Keiko is shown to be a clarinet player in a woodwind quartet; therefore, she is a musician. However, her 1* version does not have the Musician trait. So this needs to be added and any future versions of her should likely get the Musician trait as well.
    Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
    Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
    Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
    Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's talk about another trait here: Prisoner. This seems relevant with the arrival of Xindi Prisoner Archer next week.

    Current crew with the Prisoner trait:
    • Mintakan Troi
    • Prisoner Katrina Cornwell
    • Prisoner Michael Burnham
    • Prisoner O'Brien

    Crew who specifically were prisoners at the dilithium mines on the penal asteroid of Rura Penthe all seem to lack the Prisoner trait, but surely ought to have it:
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed

    Other candidates for the Prisoner trait:
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay has the word "prisoner" in his name.
    • Victorian Pulaski was held prisoner by the holodeck character Professor Moriarty.

    Any others I've missed?

    That looks like a good list, no others immediately come to mind. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tempted Data, as he was at least restrained while the Queen started grafting real skin onto his arm and face, but that was for only a short time before she, uh, freed him.

    However, wasn’t Rura Penthe Reed just sneaking in to rescue Archer? I don’t recall the details of how that rescue went down (it’s been a few months since I watched that episode) but I don’t think Reed was a prisoner. In fact, I somewhat question the inclusion of the Criminal trait for RP Reed now that I think about it.

    I agree that RP Reed should not be a criminal.
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  • Let's talk about another trait here: Prisoner. This seems relevant with the arrival of Xindi Prisoner Archer next week.

    Current crew with the Prisoner trait:
    • Mintakan Troi
    • Prisoner Katrina Cornwell
    • Prisoner Michael Burnham
    • Prisoner O'Brien

    Crew who specifically were prisoners at the dilithium mines on the penal asteroid of Rura Penthe all seem to lack the Prisoner trait, but surely ought to have it:
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed

    Other candidates for the Prisoner trait:
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay has the word "prisoner" in his name.
    • Victorian Pulaski was held prisoner by the holodeck character Professor Moriarty.

    Any others I've missed?

    That looks like a good list, no others immediately come to mind. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tempted Data, as he was at least restrained while the Queen started grafting real skin onto his arm and face, but that was for only a short time before she, uh, freed him.

    However, wasn’t Rura Penthe Reed just sneaking in to rescue Archer? I don’t recall the details of how that rescue went down (it’s been a few months since I watched that episode) but I don’t think Reed was a prisoner. In fact, I somewhat question the inclusion of the Criminal trait for RP Reed now that I think about it.

    I agree that RP Reed should not be a criminal.

    RP Reed with Criminal? No. Prisoner? Yes. After all, he wasn’t really a criminal but he did really become a prisoner in order to get in to Rura Penthe in the first place. The only reason he and the captain didn’t continue to be prisoners is because they’d bribed a guard beforehand.

    As for other crew that should be prisoners, I’m not sure since most of the ones I’d think of were already covered. The only one I’m not sure of is Temporal Prisoner Chakotay. I know he has prisoner in his name, but I’m not sure if they were being literal or figurative. In that episode he does get held prisoner for a very short amount of time by Seska but most of the episode he’s just figuratively trapped on the ship, trying to get all the different time periods to mesh together somehow.

    Criminal on the other hand, I can think of one or two that could use that trait. Arik Soong needs it. He’s got Thief for some reason, I guess because he stole the embryos, but overall, he’s still a major criminal.

    I know Ardra has Villain and Thief but it could be argued that at her core she’s just a petty criminal.

    Oh, and I just thought of one that should have the Prisoner trait that doesn’t currently. Gladiator McCoy. In that episode he was imprisoned and forced to fight, thereby making him a prisoner.

    Time Loop Mudd already has the Scoundrel trait but I’ve watched that episode and I’d definitely label him as a Criminal as well. As for the legendary version, I don’t know what traits he has, but Criminal and Prisoner should be included, even if they aren’t.

    Ok, just a couple more. Berlinghoff Rassmussen has Scoundrel but should also have Thief, and possibly also Criminal.

    Sybok could possibly be considered a criminal since his actions have Starfleet and the Klingons trying to capture or kill him, plus what he did was kinda illegal.

    Finally, there’s the Professor. Moriarty (sp?) was a criminal mastermind. I think that qualifies him for the Criminal trait.

    Keep in mind that these are all just opinions, so I’d appreciate it if no one yelled at me for expressing something contrary to their own beliefs. Thanks if you took the time to read all this.
    Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's talk about another trait here: Prisoner. This seems relevant with the arrival of Xindi Prisoner Archer next week.

    Current crew with the Prisoner trait:
    • Mintakan Troi
    • Prisoner Katrina Cornwell
    • Prisoner Michael Burnham
    • Prisoner O'Brien

    Crew who specifically were prisoners at the dilithium mines on the penal asteroid of Rura Penthe all seem to lack the Prisoner trait, but surely ought to have it:
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed

    Other candidates for the Prisoner trait:
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay has the word "prisoner" in his name.
    • Victorian Pulaski was held prisoner by the holodeck character Professor Moriarty.

    Any others I've missed?

    That looks like a good list, no others immediately come to mind. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tempted Data, as he was at least restrained while the Queen started grafting real skin onto his arm and face, but that was for only a short time before she, uh, freed him.

    However, wasn’t Rura Penthe Reed just sneaking in to rescue Archer? I don’t recall the details of how that rescue went down (it’s been a few months since I watched that episode) but I don’t think Reed was a prisoner. In fact, I somewhat question the inclusion of the Criminal trait for RP Reed now that I think about it.

    I agree that RP Reed should not be a criminal.

    RP Reed with Criminal? No. Prisoner? Yes. After all, he wasn’t really a criminal but he did really become a prisoner in order to get in to Rura Penthe in the first place. The only reason he and the captain didn’t continue to be prisoners is because they’d bribed a guard beforehand.

    As for other crew that should be prisoners, I’m not sure since most of the ones I’d think of were already covered. The only one I’m not sure of is Temporal Prisoner Chakotay. I know he has prisoner in his name, but I’m not sure if they were being literal or figurative. In that episode he does get held prisoner for a very short amount of time by Seska but most of the episode he’s just figuratively trapped on the ship, trying to get all the different time periods to mesh together somehow.

    Criminal on the other hand, I can think of one or two that could use that trait. Arik Soong needs it. He’s got Thief for some reason, I guess because he stole the embryos, but overall, he’s still a major criminal.

    I know Ardra has Villain and Thief but it could be argued that at her core she’s just a petty criminal.

    Oh, and I just thought of one that should have the Prisoner trait that doesn’t currently. Gladiator McCoy. In that episode he was imprisoned and forced to fight, thereby making him a prisoner.

    Time Loop Mudd already has the Scoundrel trait but I’ve watched that episode and I’d definitely label him as a Criminal as well. As for the legendary version, I don’t know what traits he has, but Criminal and Prisoner should be included, even if they aren’t.

    Ok, just a couple more. Berlinghoff Rassmussen has Scoundrel but should also have Thief, and possibly also Criminal.

    Sybok could possibly be considered a criminal since his actions have Starfleet and the Klingons trying to capture or kill him, plus what he did was kinda illegal.

    Finally, there’s the Professor. Moriarty (sp?) was a criminal mastermind. I think that qualifies him for the Criminal trait.

    Keep in mind that these are all just opinions, so I’d appreciate it if no one yelled at me for expressing something contrary to their own beliefs. Thanks if you took the time to read all this.

    On the Prisoner trait, I fully agree with you that we should also include Gladiator McCoy. So to update my list:

    Add Prisoner trait to:
    • Gladiator McCoy
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay
    • Victorian Pulaski
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  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now that Pah-Wraith Keiko is out and we can see that she doesn't have Botanist or Musician, I think we have to start assuming a person who is possessed or imitated no longer has their profession-based traits unless they are shown specifically engaging in them.
    Possessed but do not engage in profession = Tieran Kes (Nurse), PW Keiko (Botanist).
    Imitated but does engage in profession = Changeling Bashir (Physician).
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    Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
    Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
    Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's talk about another trait here: Prisoner. This seems relevant with the arrival of Xindi Prisoner Archer next week.

    Current crew with the Prisoner trait:
    • Mintakan Troi
    • Prisoner Katrina Cornwell
    • Prisoner Michael Burnham
    • Prisoner O'Brien

    Crew who specifically were prisoners at the dilithium mines on the penal asteroid of Rura Penthe all seem to lack the Prisoner trait, but surely ought to have it:
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed

    Other candidates for the Prisoner trait:
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay has the word "prisoner" in his name.
    • Victorian Pulaski was held prisoner by the holodeck character Professor Moriarty.

    Any others I've missed?

    That looks like a good list, no others immediately come to mind. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tempted Data, as he was at least restrained while the Queen started grafting real skin onto his arm and face, but that was for only a short time before she, uh, freed him.

    However, wasn’t Rura Penthe Reed just sneaking in to rescue Archer? I don’t recall the details of how that rescue went down (it’s been a few months since I watched that episode) but I don’t think Reed was a prisoner. In fact, I somewhat question the inclusion of the Criminal trait for RP Reed now that I think about it.

    I agree that RP Reed should not be a criminal.

    RP Reed with Criminal? No. Prisoner? Yes. After all, he wasn’t really a criminal but he did really become a prisoner in order to get in to Rura Penthe in the first place. The only reason he and the captain didn’t continue to be prisoners is because they’d bribed a guard beforehand.

    As for other crew that should be prisoners, I’m not sure since most of the ones I’d think of were already covered. The only one I’m not sure of is Temporal Prisoner Chakotay. I know he has prisoner in his name, but I’m not sure if they were being literal or figurative. In that episode he does get held prisoner for a very short amount of time by Seska but most of the episode he’s just figuratively trapped on the ship, trying to get all the different time periods to mesh together somehow.

    Criminal on the other hand, I can think of one or two that could use that trait. Arik Soong needs it. He’s got Thief for some reason, I guess because he stole the embryos, but overall, he’s still a major criminal.

    I know Ardra has Villain and Thief but it could be argued that at her core she’s just a petty criminal.

    Oh, and I just thought of one that should have the Prisoner trait that doesn’t currently. Gladiator McCoy. In that episode he was imprisoned and forced to fight, thereby making him a prisoner.

    Time Loop Mudd already has the Scoundrel trait but I’ve watched that episode and I’d definitely label him as a Criminal as well. As for the legendary version, I don’t know what traits he has, but Criminal and Prisoner should be included, even if they aren’t.

    Ok, just a couple more. Berlinghoff Rassmussen has Scoundrel but should also have Thief, and possibly also Criminal.

    Sybok could possibly be considered a criminal since his actions have Starfleet and the Klingons trying to capture or kill him, plus what he did was kinda illegal.

    Finally, there’s the Professor. Moriarty (sp?) was a criminal mastermind. I think that qualifies him for the Criminal trait.

    Keep in mind that these are all just opinions, so I’d appreciate it if no one yelled at me for expressing something contrary to their own beliefs. Thanks if you took the time to read all this.

    On the Prisoner trait, I fully agree with you that we should also include Gladiator McCoy. So to update my list:

    Add Prisoner trait to:
    • Gladiator McCoy
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay
    • Victorian Pulaski

    I'm not actually sure Temporal Prisoner Chakotay requires Prisoner. He's not actually a prisoner based on the mandate of some person of authority. He's a "prisoner" of circumstance, being that he's trapped in a temporal paradox. Sure Prisoner is in his name, but for all intents and purposes, in that episode he was never once a Prisoner.
    Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
    Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
    Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
    Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's talk about another trait here: Prisoner. This seems relevant with the arrival of Xindi Prisoner Archer next week.

    Current crew with the Prisoner trait:
    • Mintakan Troi
    • Prisoner Katrina Cornwell
    • Prisoner Michael Burnham
    • Prisoner O'Brien

    Crew who specifically were prisoners at the dilithium mines on the penal asteroid of Rura Penthe all seem to lack the Prisoner trait, but surely ought to have it:
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed

    Other candidates for the Prisoner trait:
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay has the word "prisoner" in his name.
    • Victorian Pulaski was held prisoner by the holodeck character Professor Moriarty.

    Any others I've missed?

    That looks like a good list, no others immediately come to mind. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tempted Data, as he was at least restrained while the Queen started grafting real skin onto his arm and face, but that was for only a short time before she, uh, freed him.

    However, wasn’t Rura Penthe Reed just sneaking in to rescue Archer? I don’t recall the details of how that rescue went down (it’s been a few months since I watched that episode) but I don’t think Reed was a prisoner. In fact, I somewhat question the inclusion of the Criminal trait for RP Reed now that I think about it.

    I agree that RP Reed should not be a criminal.

    RP Reed with Criminal? No. Prisoner? Yes. After all, he wasn’t really a criminal but he did really become a prisoner in order to get in to Rura Penthe in the first place. The only reason he and the captain didn’t continue to be prisoners is because they’d bribed a guard beforehand.

    As for other crew that should be prisoners, I’m not sure since most of the ones I’d think of were already covered. The only one I’m not sure of is Temporal Prisoner Chakotay. I know he has prisoner in his name, but I’m not sure if they were being literal or figurative. In that episode he does get held prisoner for a very short amount of time by Seska but most of the episode he’s just figuratively trapped on the ship, trying to get all the different time periods to mesh together somehow.

    Criminal on the other hand, I can think of one or two that could use that trait. Arik Soong needs it. He’s got Thief for some reason, I guess because he stole the embryos, but overall, he’s still a major criminal.

    I know Ardra has Villain and Thief but it could be argued that at her core she’s just a petty criminal.

    Oh, and I just thought of one that should have the Prisoner trait that doesn’t currently. Gladiator McCoy. In that episode he was imprisoned and forced to fight, thereby making him a prisoner.

    Time Loop Mudd already has the Scoundrel trait but I’ve watched that episode and I’d definitely label him as a Criminal as well. As for the legendary version, I don’t know what traits he has, but Criminal and Prisoner should be included, even if they aren’t.

    Ok, just a couple more. Berlinghoff Rassmussen has Scoundrel but should also have Thief, and possibly also Criminal.

    Sybok could possibly be considered a criminal since his actions have Starfleet and the Klingons trying to capture or kill him, plus what he did was kinda illegal.

    Finally, there’s the Professor. Moriarty (sp?) was a criminal mastermind. I think that qualifies him for the Criminal trait.

    Keep in mind that these are all just opinions, so I’d appreciate it if no one yelled at me for expressing something contrary to their own beliefs. Thanks if you took the time to read all this.

    On the Prisoner trait, I fully agree with you that we should also include Gladiator McCoy. So to update my list:

    Add Prisoner trait to:
    • Gladiator McCoy
    • Martia
    • Prisoner 'Bones' McCoy
    • Rura Penthe Kirk
    • Rura Penthe Reed
    • Temporal Prisoner Chakotay
    • Victorian Pulaski

    I'm not actually sure Temporal Prisoner Chakotay requires Prisoner. He's not actually a prisoner based on the mandate of some person of authority. He's a "prisoner" of circumstance, being that he's trapped in a temporal paradox. Sure Prisoner is in his name, but for all intents and purposes, in that episode he was never once a Prisoner.

    Does this line of reasoning also encompass Xindi Prisoner Archer who also lacks the Prisoner trait?
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  • Xindi prisoner Archer is costumed. Shouldn't this be undercover operative?
  • JhamelJhamel ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, looks more undercover than costumed to me, just like Undercover O'Brien.
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  • Xindi Prisoner Archer is pretending to be a prisoner of the Xindi so I could see him having or not having the Prisoner trait, but as for Costumed, that’s totally wrong. He should have Undercover Operative, not Costumed. I suppose he could have both of those but the important one in my mind is the Undercover Operative.
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  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay, I'm pretty sure I've updated the master list with all the recent suggestions/requests. The only one I left out is removing Criminal from Rura Penthe Reed. As @Zann Calcore noted, he was a Prisoner for the purpose of infiltrating Rura Penthe, but it's implicit he had to also pass himself off as a Criminal to be believed as a Prisoner.

    Also, I'm deferring to @Lady Gaghgagh's recollection of the VOY episode with Temporal Prisoner Chakotay.
  • Lady GaghgaghLady Gaghgagh ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Travis S McClain Thanks for updating the list. Unfortunately I come with some "objections" (is there a better word? Maybe corrections?).

    Where are we on considering if possessed people retain their profession traits? i.e. Tieran Possessed Kes as Nurse, or Pah-Wraith Keiko as Botanist?

    You missed adding Musician to Botanist Keiko.

    And a discussion for everyone in the thread and DB to have, should we perhaps rename Prisoner to something more general, say Captive? A Prisoner is a bit specific, I'm not sure Prisoner is the best title for people who would be considered a Hostage. A Prisoner requires the limitation of basic freedoms often in an institution and often for the sake of justice/criminal punishment. A Hostage is simply a person denied freedom by someone in authority through threats/coercion and potential violence and is used as a means to an end, justice doesn't come into play with a Hostage.

    Prisoner O'Brien is a prisoner, he's being held by authority to punish his supposed crimes.
    Rura Penthe Kirk is a prisoner, same reasons as O'Brien above.
    Mintakan Troi is not a prisoner, she is a hostage, she is being detained by the Mintakan villagers in hopes that their demands can be met by The Picard.
    Victorian Pulaski is not a prisoner, she is a hostage being held by Moriarty so that his demands to the Enterprise crew can be met.

    So there is a difference here in the situation. I think this means we need a better more inclusive term, such as Captive. A Captive therefore, would be a nice general mix of both Hostages and Prisoners. It disregards the stipulations of institutionalized justice or criminal punishment or ransom, it simply denotes a person's detained status and nothing more.
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  • Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    @Travis S McClain Thanks for updating the list. Unfortunately I come with some "objections" (is there a better word? Maybe corrections?).

    Where are we on considering if possessed people retain their profession traits? i.e. Tieran Possessed Kes as Nurse, or Pah-Wraith Keiko as Botanist?

    You missed adding Musician to Botanist Keiko.

    And a discussion for everyone in the thread and DB to have, should we perhaps rename Prisoner to something more general, say Captive? A Prisoner is a bit specific, I'm not sure Prisoner is the best title for people who would be considered a Hostage. A Prisoner requires the limitation of basic freedoms often in an institution and often for the sake of justice/criminal punishment. A Hostage is simply a person denied freedom by someone in authority through threats/coercion and potential violence and is used as a means to an end, justice doesn't come into play with a Hostage.

    Prisoner O'Brien is a prisoner, he's being held by authority to punish his supposed crimes.
    Rura Penthe Kirk is a prisoner, same reasons as O'Brien above.
    Mintakan Troi is not a prisoner, she is a hostage, she is being detained by the Mintakan villagers in hopes that their demands can be met by The Picard.
    Victorian Pulaski is not a prisoner, she is a hostage being held by Moriarty so that his demands to the Enterprise crew can be met.

    So there is a difference here in the situation. I think this means we need a better more inclusive term, such as Captive. A Captive therefore, would be a nice general mix of both Hostages and Prisoners. It disregards the stipulations of institutionalized justice or criminal punishment or ransom, it simply denotes a person's detained status and nothing more.
    @Travis S McClain Thanks for updating the list. Unfortunately I come with some "objections" (is there a better word? Maybe corrections?).

    Where are we on considering if possessed people retain their profession traits? i.e. Tieran Possessed Kes as Nurse, or Pah-Wraith Keiko as Botanist?

    You missed adding Musician to Botanist Keiko.

    And a discussion for everyone in the thread and DB to have, should we perhaps rename Prisoner to something more general, say Captive? A Prisoner is a bit specific, I'm not sure Prisoner is the best title for people who would be considered a Hostage. A Prisoner requires the limitation of basic freedoms often in an institution and often for the sake of justice/criminal punishment. A Hostage is simply a person denied freedom by someone in authority through threats/coercion and potential violence and is used as a means to an end, justice doesn't come into play with a Hostage.

    Prisoner O'Brien is a prisoner, he's being held by authority to punish his supposed crimes.
    Rura Penthe Kirk is a prisoner, same reasons as O'Brien above.
    Mintakan Troi is not a prisoner, she is a hostage, she is being detained by the Mintakan villagers in hopes that their demands can be met by The Picard.
    Victorian Pulaski is not a prisoner, she is a hostage being held by Moriarty so that his demands to the Enterprise crew can be met.

    So there is a difference here in the situation. I think this means we need a better more inclusive term, such as Captive. A Captive therefore, would be a nice general mix of both Hostages and Prisoners. It disregards the stipulations of institutionalized justice or criminal punishment or ransom, it simply denotes a person's detained status and nothing more.

    Good catch on Botanist Keiko and Musician! Fixed.

    Also, I added a section for Prisoner, Hostage, and Captive, and linked directly to your above post, @Lady Gaghgagh. I included Temporal Prisoner Chakotay under Hostage for the reasons you explained in a previous post. Lemme know if that all looks right to you.

    EDIT TO ADD
    I'm leaving out the possessed character trait matter until there's a clearer consensus. I personally think it stands to reason to omit at least some traits, which is consistent with some personae of a given character not having some traits across all their personae, to reflect that they weren't really relevant in that persona's situation. But that's just me chiming in and not any kind of ruling being handed down from on high just because I started the thread.
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's now a debate on the Augment trait, which seems relevant to this thread as well. What makes someone an Augment?

    Current Augments in the game:
    • All versions of Khan
    • All versions of Bashir (except Changeling Bashir, who was not really Bashir)
    • Persis
    • Joachim
    • Augment Picard (non-canon)
    • Augment Riker (non-canon)

    Everyone on this list are humans who were genetically manipulated to have augmented abilities. In answer to why Rogna Danar does not have the Augment trait, @Shan states that "he is enhanced/augmented, yes - but he is not part of the Augment faction hence why he does not have that trait."

    Some questions:

    Should one have to be on the Augments' "side" and thus part that faction politically? If so, while that would disqualify Rogna Danar and Bashir, that could include non-augmented humans like Marla McGivers and Arik Soong who supported the Augment cause.

    Should one have to be human to be an Augment? If so, augmented non-humans (like the new Rogna Danar) would not qualify. Bashir would still qualify, as would Khan, Persis, Joachim, and the non-canon Augment Picard and Riker. But that seems awfully species-ist.

    Thoughts?
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  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many good questions. I wonder if it might be best to separate the political affiliation from whether or not someone has been genetically enhanced. This would mean that the Khans, Persis, Joachim, Arik Soong, and Marla McGivers would be Augments from a political standpoint, while the above list plus Roga Danar would be Augmented.

    I also specified genetic enhancements specifically to keep the Borg, Bynars, and anyone else physically or cybernetically enhanced from being included under the same designation. Perhaps Genetically Engineered instead of “augmented” would be more accurate and reduce confusion later. Having two traits would allow for more flexibility for potential future crew as well:

    Augment and Genetically Engineered
    -Khan variants
    -everyone else on the SS Botany Bay
    -Arik Soong’s “children”

    Augment but not Genetically Engineered
    -Marla McGivers
    -Arik Soong

    Genetically Engineered but not Augment
    -Bashir variants
    -the Misfits
    -those kids with the super immune systems that nearly killed Pulaski that one time
    -any of the jerks from The Masterpiece Society
    -Roga Danar and his fellow modified Angosians
    -the Klingon general’s son and fellow modified commandos from ENT
    -possibly all Vorta and Jem’Hadar
    -probably more that are slipping my mind
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many good questions. I wonder if it might be best to separate the political affiliation from whether or not someone has been genetically enhanced. This would mean that the Khans, Persis, Joachim, Arik Soong, and Marla McGivers would be Augments from a political standpoint, while the above list plus Roga Danar would be Augmented.

    I also specified genetic enhancements specifically to keep the Borg, Bynars, and anyone else physically or cybernetically enhanced from being included under the same designation. Perhaps Genetically Engineered instead of “augmented” would be more accurate and reduce confusion later. Having two traits would allow for more flexibility for potential future crew as well:

    Augment and Genetically Engineered
    -Khan variants
    -everyone else on the SS Botany Bay
    -Arik Soong’s “children”

    Augment but not Genetically Engineered
    -Marla McGivers
    -Arik Soong

    Genetically Engineered but not Augment
    -Bashir variants
    -the Misfits
    -those kids with the super immune systems that nearly killed Pulaski that one time
    -any of the jerks from The Masterpiece Society
    -Roga Danar and his fellow modified Angosians
    -the Klingon general’s son and fellow modified commandos from ENT
    -possibly all Vorta and Jem’Hadar
    -probably more that are slipping my mind

    This is thoughtful and comprehensive. Great idea to add a new trait called Genetically Engineered.
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  • Zann Calcore (ISA)Zann Calcore (ISA) ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Well, since we don’t have that trait or distinction and since previously all the Augment crew have also had the Human trait, since they were human, I’d say in the case of Roga Danar and any other future “alien” augmented crew, that it would be much simpler to just give them the Augment trait.

    So, to my mind, Roga Danar should have Augment and Veteran added, preferably before the event begins. Oh, and now that I think about it, he should also have Survivalist and Pilot.
    Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
  • Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, since we don’t have that trait or distinction and since previously all the Augment crew have also had the Human trait, since they were human, I’d say in the case of Roga Danar and any other future “alien” augmented crew, that it would be much simpler to just give them the Augment trait.

    So, to my mind, Roga Danar should have Augment and Veteran added, preferably before the event begins. Oh, and now that I think about it, he should also have Survivalist and Pilot.

    I would tend to agree that Roga Danar should get the Augment trait if DB does not add another clarifying trait but I recall seeing earlier today that Shan says “Augment” is a political affiliation that doesn’t apply to Danar. There are of course many problems with this reasoning (Bashir is not politically connect to Khan or his supporters, while for the purpose of this event Roga Danar is very much involved with leading Augments) but DB has also said that traits are sometimes added or not given due to game balance or economy issues.

    I really don’t have an argument for the other traits. Veteran for sure, someone mentioned Tactician would be a good one...then again, adding the four you mentioned plus Tactician would give him 11 traits, which may be unprecedented for a 4* crew. On the other hand, the fact that he has Crafty, Resourceful, and Jury Rigger suggests to me that maybe he really only needs Pilot, Veteran, and whatever we can agree on when it comes to his genetically enhanced status.
  • GhostStalkerGhostStalker ✭✭✭✭✭
    President of Earth Doctor needs Physician trait. He's got his memories, he's got med. He's a doctor. Physician!
  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unless the Wiki needs updating Suliban Reed needs undercover operative, I actually thought he did have this trait, but the Wiki says no.
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  • Unless the Wiki needs updating Suliban Reed needs undercover operative, I actually thought he did have this trait, but the Wiki says no.

    He does have it. I just checked my copy.
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